martiniii
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Post by martiniii on Jul 3, 2011 2:37:59 GMT
These past few days, I've been playing this game for the first time. Have to say that I'm disappointed. A big part of it is the terrible manual for the USA version, which explains "Retreat" three times over(as if the word wasn't self-explanatory) yet says scarcely a word about the core of the gameplay: the combat formations. I must have played the game for over 15 hours now and still haven't figured out the strategy behind these. Hard to get much fun out of a game when you don't know what you're doing.
But also, the game itself is very tedious. The pointless and repetitive taunts from the generals, the unnecessary messages from your advisor, the non-cycling menus(seriously, what the heck?), and the world map which you must peruse using a completely unordered listing of castles all bog down the whole experience.
Then the ease with which enemies can retreat, plus your generals' constant deserting your nation to join another, forces you to fight the same battles over and over in order to make any progress. (It also makes me increasingly less attached to my generals as the game goes on, since I can't trust them, or even keep straight who's on whose side a hefty percentage of the time.) Playing this game is like being Sisyphus.
And yet, I can't stop playing it, simply because the simulation is so beautifully rendered.
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syn
There can be only one. Not eternal spamnation
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Post by syn on Jul 3, 2011 2:51:42 GMT
If you talk to your generals and reward them with troops you'll have less deserting...except Bastion. He's a prick that you need to leave in charge of a castle or keep him as a prisoner.
Also, the moment an enemy retreats, send a fresh general after them immediately. They have less men and weak health obviously.
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Post by sinful on Jul 3, 2011 5:14:18 GMT
These past few days, I've been playing this game for the first time. Have to say that I'm disappointed. A big part of it is the terrible manual for the USA version, which explains "Retreat" three times over(as if the word wasn't self-explanatory) yet says scarcely a word about the core of the game play: the combat formations. I must have played the game for over 15 hours now and still haven't figured out the strategy behind these. Hard to get much fun out of a game when you don't know what you're doing. No shit? Well fuck giving that game another chance anytime soon... Why couldn't I of played all the overly complicated BS SRPGs/RPGs/Simulation games before I got spoiled by Shining Force 3's simple enough to start with no manual, yet deep enough to play forever. I was gonna say "Any good FAQs out there?" But then realized what fun is a game when I have to look up an FAQ (other then looking up stuff like weapons & items, charts, and other simple stuff). So too bad the manual really doesn't explain things so well... and you said you played for 15 hours and still clueless?!?!? Dam that would of pissed me off to no end... well I definitely wouldn't of made it near that far that's for sure. I know of this game from back in the day when EGM raved about it all the time how everybody in the office got so addicted to it and never got any work done because of it or something to that note. The only thing that making me want to play this game. Is this game really that worth it? I mean EGM & a shit load of others also praised Final Fantasy Tactics too, when they should of mentioned that that game is a broken, overcomplicated mess & far too overrated (only reason i manged to beat it was because I wanted to advance from boring & pointless turn-based game play of most RPGs. And thought this was the perfect game to start with since everybody says it's the best of it's kind. Lucky I played this just before SF3, lol). But in their defense one EGM member when describing SF3 said it was a lot like FFT only much simpler & much more fun. You know, the Saturn seems to have a lot a unique SRPGs & RPGs that seem of great interest to me, only that their Japanese only. Man, I must learn Japanese somehow and fast.
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mick_aka
Kickin' it lively!
"Mick is moderately adequate."
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Post by mick_aka on Jul 3, 2011 8:30:03 GMT
Dragonforce is very enjoyable once you get into it, amanaging your generals seems a massive ball-ache at first but later on becomes second nature.
Remember to give them awards, men and talk to them every chance you get.
Also keep on top of upgrading all your castles defenses, that's usually the one I keep forgetting about.
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Post by bradcap1 on Jul 3, 2011 12:18:08 GMT
Overall I thought Dragonforce was a very good game. But I can see why you were frustrated with it. The manual is not the best and you have to experiment to figure out how to get started. But my two biggest complaints are that the formations don't really affect the outcomes of the battles other than getting troops out of the way when facing opponents that have projectiles or fireballs and that despite completing all the required tasks the game does not seem to want to continue until it reaches a certain time stamp. This results in about 2-3 hours of aimless wandering until events start occurring again. As far as generals, the ones you start out with are loyal. Promote them. The other rulers you conquer are loyal as well.
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Post by bradcap1 on Jul 3, 2011 12:20:54 GMT
Oh yeah, and don't attack samurai with dragons. It's a freaking slaughter.
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Post by sinful on Jul 3, 2011 17:45:07 GMT
OK here is something I hope I'm very wrong about. For some reason I get the feeling the the whole game is trial and error instead of strategy. Basically if this is true and your memory is too good, replaying the game with the same general is pointless.
You see, no strategy is the biggest problem I find with SRPGs/RPGs. Though if their storyline is good enough and/or battle system fast paced enough (or still pretty fun in someway), it's still very possible to beat.
But I guess if it is true, then maybe that's all this game needs and makes trial and error very fun somehow?
EDIT - and thanks for all the beginner advice to all those that added it.
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pulstar
Saturn Player
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Post by pulstar on Jul 3, 2011 20:04:21 GMT
You see, no strategy is the biggest problem I find with SRPGs/RPGs. Though if their storyline is good enough and/or battle system fast paced enough (or still pretty fun in someway), it's still very possible to beat. I found this to be a problem with most strategy games and really found that only a few series actually require strategy (Fire Emblem, Langrisser to name two of my faves). But Dragon Force is a very confusing game for the beginner, that doesn't help itself with the lack of information/tutorials at the beginning. The game kind of throws you in at the deep end and doesn't let up.
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martiniii
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Post by martiniii on Jul 4, 2011 0:13:30 GMT
If you talk to your generals and reward them with troops you'll have less deserting...except Bastion. He's a prick that you need to leave in charge of a castle or keep him as a prisoner. Really? It seems to always be my most favored generals that desert me. I was starting to develop a theory that having more men makes generals more ambitious and independent-minded. Good thing I brought this up here; now I know the real story. That stinks that you have to keep on talking to generals. I was doing that for a while, but gave up on it when I realized that not only were none of them saying anything useful, but about half of their "reports" sound more like pre-adolescent whining than anything a general would say. Oh well... If it means I can actually keep generals under my command once I acquire them, wading through a bit more text is no big deal. Thank you muchly for the advice, guys! No shit? Well fuck giving that game another chance anytime soon... Why couldn't I of played all the overly complicated BS SRPGs/RPGs/Simulation games before I got spoiled by Shining Force 3's simple enough to start with no manual, yet deep enough to play forever. Yeah, I wish I hadn't left Dragon Force as my last western-released Saturn RPG now. It really is astonishing that they could pull off war simulation this cool back in 1996, and I do welcome any opportunity to marvel at the Saturn's prowess, but the gameplay is too slow and repetitive for my taste. Though hopefully my view will change at least somewhat once I try out the strategies Synbios and Mick suggested. I was gonna say "Any good FAQs out there?" But then realized what fun is a game when I have to look up an FAQ (other then looking up stuff like weapons & items, charts, and other simple stuff). So too bad the manual really doesn't explain things so well... and you said you played for 15 hours and still clueless?!?!? Dam that would of pissed me off to no end... well I definitely wouldn't of made it near that far that's for sure. To be fair, I should mention that I'm generally not one to experiment much in games. Though even with the few formations that I've used extensively, I haven't been able to figure out all the situations where they should or shouldn't be used.
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martiniii
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Post by martiniii on Jul 11, 2011 18:42:44 GMT
...Dagnabit. Following synbiosfan's advice, I was able to maintain and build my collection of generals and more quickly conquer the world. The pace had picked up. For a while, things were feeling pretty good.
Then I hit... Zanon. What were Sega smoking when they designed this guy? Ever since I conquered his castle as what's-her-name instructed me to, this guy attacks the same castle SIX TIMES A ROUND. And you can't get rid of him, or either of his cronies. I even tried stuff like having what's-her-name fight Zanon herself, searching Zanon's castle, etc.; nothing. So six times a round I have to deploy an army from Zanon's castle for a pointless fight with three guys who all have no MP or troops remaining. This is supposed to be fun?
Nonetheless, I held out until I had conquered the only two countries remaining, figuring the story would then eliminate Zanon. But despite my conquering the entire world, the story still won't advance! I'm still stuck with hearing the lines "You can't beat Superfly" and "If only I had Christie Love" six times a round.
I give up. How do you get rid of this annoyance?
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syn
There can be only one. Not eternal spamnation
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Post by syn on Jul 11, 2011 19:57:51 GMT
...Dagnabit. Following synbiosfan's advice, I was able to maintain and build my collection of generals and more quickly conquer the world. The pace had picked up. For a while, things were feeling pretty good. Then I hit... Zanon. What were Sega smoking when they designed this guy? Ever since I conquered his castle as what's-her-name instructed me to, this guy attacks the same castle SIX TIMES A ROUND. And you can't get rid of him, or either of his cronies. I even tried stuff like having what's-her-name fight Zanon herself, searching Zanon's castle, etc.; nothing. So six times a round I have to deploy an army from Zanon's castle for a pointless fight with three guys who all have no MP or troops remaining. This is supposed to be fun? Nonetheless, I held out until I had conquered the only two countries remaining, figuring the story would then eliminate Zanon. But despite my conquering the entire world, the story still won't advance! I'm still stuck with hearing the lines "You can't beat Superfly" and "If only I had Christie Love" six times a round. I give up. How do you get rid of this annoyance? Leave him be for the moment Depending on which General you chose, you'll deal with him later. Btw do you have Vlad? You don't actually have to have that castle to beat the game iirc. It sucks that your first game isin't going smoothly I never thought of it as hard to figure out at all...I have played a number of Japanese rpgs where I have no clue about the menus though. Don't buy the stratedgy guide (available on line or orderable at your local bookstore ;D) it's just a larger manual and a big waste of money.
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Post by bradcap1 on Jul 12, 2011 16:56:24 GMT
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martiniii
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Post by martiniii on Jul 12, 2011 20:59:25 GMT
I got stuck in that same endless loop with Zanon too. Finally had to let him have his castle back and dealt with him later. Yeah, I've thought about doing that. But I'm stubborn... I keep thinking, "After all I went through to capture and hold it, why should this jerk get the castle just because the game allows him to launch hopeless attack after hopeless attack with no penalty?" Plus, it always seems like I have just a little bit farther to go before the story unravels further, and each time the story progresses there's a chance that Zanon will be taken off the field. Only thing left I could think of is to search all the towers and shrines, even though I had already searched most of them and found zilch. This time I was systematic, and there's still nothing in any of them, save the northern tower, and that apparently won't open unless Leon comes. Naturally, he happens to be halfway across the world. Grrr. What kills me is that, even after I've sent Leon all that way, the northern tower is probably just going to have a pointless hidden character or something of the sort that will bring me no closer to the end of the game. I should probably put Dragon Force aside at this point and get back to Creature Shock.
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martiniii
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Post by martiniii on Jul 14, 2011 1:40:42 GMT
What kills me is that, even after I've sent Leon all that way, the northern tower is probably just going to have a pointless hidden character or something of the sort that will bring me no closer to the end of the game. Welp, I was wrong about that, but it amounts to pretty much the same thing. The game again leaves me with no apparent objective, and a search of all the shrines still yields nothing. This leaves me with nothing to try but random combinations, e.g have character A search castle X, put characters B and C together in castle Y, etc. Strategy RPG, my butt; this is a frickin' guessing game. I finally caved and checked the walkthroughs, only to find that they both have lots of spoilers but little in the way of explanation for what you're supposed to do. YouTube has a couple video walkthroughs, but none for Leon. Guess I'm stuck until someone writes a better walkthrough for the game.
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martiniii
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Post by martiniii on Jul 22, 2011 14:33:15 GMT
Had a moment with nothing better to do, booted the game up, and by chance managed to activate the shrines sub-quest. The rest of the game actually flows quite nicely, so... I finished it! ;D The battles with the dark apostles are pretty cool, and I loved all the dialogue dependent on which country you play as. (Though I really, really could have done without the "threesome" joke. Sometimes I wonder what the heck Working Designs were thinking.) I would say those bits of dialogue, as much as anything else, tempt me to replay the game as another nation. Given how long the game is, though, I think it'll be a while before I get around to that. Oddly, both forms of the final boss are a complete joke. I wasted 4 MP using my Dragon Rush on form 1 before I realized "Hey, this guy doesn't even fight back!" Form 2 is scarcely better; he throws an attack every 15 seconds or so, but aside from that he just sat there and let my troops beat the snot out of him. Given how tense the battles with Scythe and especially Gaul are, this is quite perplexing. To those of you who have played through the PAL version: Is the easiness of the final boss one of the many "tweaks" Working Designs made to the game? Or is he the same in the European release? I'm disappointed that you don't really get a different ending depending on which country you chose to play as, just a different ending still. Not that Leon doesn't get a very cool still. Also. The sidequest with Zanon was NEVER resolved. I marched off to the final battle while that idiot was preparing his 687th attempt to retake his castle. On a final note, does anyone else find it odd that your team is dubbed "the Dragon Force" and the world's savior in legend is a dragon, yet pretty much every dragon you encounter in the game is an enemy?
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