Die Hard Arcade OR Guardian Heroes OR Three Dirty Dwarves?

[sych]

The final poll of the week. Probably the tougheset of them all. 3 of the best Beat'em'ups money can buy in PAL/US teritory. So which will it be: Die Hard Arcade, Guardian Heroes or Three Dirty Dwarves? Pick one and explain why in the comments below.

THREE DIRTY DWARVES



GUARDIAN HEROES



DIE HARD ARCADE

[Anthaemia.]

I'll admit to not really caring much for Guardian Heroes at first, having rented it just once and not really "getting" what most reviewers had been raving about. Years later, I bought Advance Guardian Heroes and everything finally clicked - now I consider the Saturn original a truly hidden Treasure (yes, I went there!) of Sega's 32-bit era catalogue that has thankfully since been revisited so newer generations can appreciate its brilliance. In comparison, I've never been able to play Three Dirty Dwarves for long, despite trying many times for the same to happen with this game. While some may consider this a positive, the general diversity throws me off, and I spend longer adjusting to each section rather than enjoying what should be a cohesive whole. The one thing I will say about both is that they're equally fantastic showcases for the Saturn's 2D capabilities in their own unique ways, but this is a three-way battle, and I've one title left to discuss.

The fact I'm dedicating an entire paragraph to Die Hard Arcade should be an indicator of what I feel is the winner in this particular contest, and you're absolutely right to assume it's my favourite of the available offerings. As the result of a somewhat unlikely collaboration between the Japanese AM1 department and the US-based Sega Technical Institute at a time relations between the company's global divisions were straining, this stands as one of those games that could easily have been released under any name and still succeeded to a degree, such was its quality. A showcase for the QTE concept before Yu Suzuki officially came up with the acronym, it's a shame this wasn't instead issued using the Streets Of Rage license, since it's by far the best 3D update to the beat 'em up genre. In retrospect, the Die Hard associations don't mean much, and this could easily have proved a better example of how to improve on a much beloved series established using previous Sega hardware, which is more than you can say for the Saturn sequels to Shinobi or Hang On...

[Ted]

I don't know if this is unfair but I've only really played one of these games on the Saturn! Although this doesn't mean I haven't played the other two through other means.

I've actually played Die Hard Arcade as it was meant to be played, well, in an arcade. Sadly where it was is long gone (it was at a small caravan camp's games room- I heard they went bust a year ago). But I guess this does count as it's an ST-V game after all.

My thoughts on this one are mixed. In my short time playing it (I had 2 plays, one I got up to stage 2 and the other I got up to 3), I thought that it was rather good for an early 3D beat em' up as I'd heard not very good things about them, with some great weapons to use. I got a real kick out of them. However I thought the quick time events were a bit jarring personally.

Three Dirty Dwarves, now the way I managed to play this one was strange. I was staying with some relatives (second uncle and aunt I think? no-one else was available) in the US for the weekend or so while my dad had some back surgery done- I wasn't really too bothered or knew what was going on, I was only about 4. They had a PC which was getting quite old by this point, they were about to replace it. Anyway during the time they'd had it they amassed a big collection of CD-ROMS, which I just took as CD's at the time, until one of them mentioned they thought there was a videogame or two in there. And, the game they had was, you guessed it, the PC port of Three Dirty Dwarves.

I hadn't realised it was this game until very recently. Of course since I was 4 I didn't know anything about video games besides something like Mario Kart Wii by this point, so I was pretty bad at it. My memories are fuzzy but I remember liking the cartoon intro, and not quite getting why you switched characters or just doing anything in the game at all. Still I think I got the hang of it and I almost completed what what I know know is the 'Streets of Bronx' level. I suppose I shouldn't count this game but I have at least played it to some extent.

And, finally, Guardian Heroes. Wow, this game. Where to begin. It helps that this is the only game out of these three I own, but I can safely say that this game would easily still be at the top if I owned both Die Hard and Dwarves. Honestly, it comes as no surprise to me as I've loved the rest of Treasures games I've played so far, but I just plain adore this game. Two genres that I don't particularly like too much, RPG's and beat em up's, for some reason, are just perfect together here.

I love the multiple paths you can take, I love the various characters to play as with their different attacks, I love the different endings you can achieve based on your karma, I love the crazy and unbalanced battle mode (which I have indeed played with 6 players at a gaming event), I love its quirky synth rock soundtrack, honestly if I had any criticisms about this game they'd be purely nitpicking.

I don't know how they do it, but every game I've played by Treasure have been amazing (even Alien Soldier, which I am terrible at). I'm not over exaggerating when I say that I consider Guardian Heroes to be one of my favorite games of all time, and for someone who's still quite young, I've played a lot of games. So naturally GH gets my vote.

(Also, I may one day get Die Hard Arcade if I can find it for a cheap enough price, but Three Dirty Dwarves is unlikely.)

[xDerekRx]

Another REALLY tough poll. Sych you haven't really made one easy one yet for me (other than maybe the RE one)



My opinion is much like Anthaemias...



Die Hard Arcade love is far more than just the game itself for me. It was one of my brother and I's first favorite arcade games. So many quarters lost.

But the backstory ads so much. This was one of the rare amazing games produced outside of Japan and very cool that the US team produced much of it. A collaboration between SOA and SOJ seemed unthinkable. But what it turned into was one of the best and most seamless arcade to Saturn transitions thanks to the hardware and side by side development.

I actually don't mind the Die Hard license. One of my favorite movies at the time, the original game design certainly was inspired by it from the main character looking just like Bruce Willis' character to the general ambiance.


Guardian Heroes is one of the systems true gems. So deep on content too. The 6 player arena mode where you can literally play as just about any darn thing that appears in the game is amazing. Treasure were kings of unique games and their twist on this genre was great. The only thing that ever put me off on GH was the chaos can get a bit too much on screen. My friend and I beat this about 7 years ago and had some issues with that. But when it clicks the game is very deep.

Three Dirty Dwarves was one of the first Saturn titles I remember seeing and playing on the demo disc that came with the console. Probably one of the best SegaSoft stamped titles that came out. Really nice visuals, a weird but cool 3 player mode and just a quirky fun game overall. A nice early exclusive for the system. The weirder games that Sega made are the ones I appreciate most because they stand out even if they are not your 10/10 titles. Bug, Clockwork Knight,  Mr Bones, this, Congo (ok maybe just me on Congo)

[sych]

I want to start off by saying all 3 are excellent games in their own right and if I could give my vote to all 3 I would but unfortunately there could only be one winner. I’ve been switching my vote every second but I’ve finally picked a winner.

3rd Place: Guardian Heroes. Out of the 3, I actually consider Guardian Heroes to be the best game overall and it was the game that I thought would initially come out on top for me but where it falls down heavily is in its own USP which is the meshing of RPG story and Beat ‘em’ ups elements. Don’t get me wrong there is absolutely nothing wrong with those two qualities coming together to produce a formidable game. Dungeons and Dragons Collection does the exact same thing and that’s my favourite beat ‘em’ up on the system. Difference is Dungeons and Dragons does it better. The story in Guardian Heroes is actually in parts quite interesting,. After every level is complete more bits of the story are filled in as our group of heroes come together and chat. Problem is it’s extremely long winded. You’d be sitting there for 5 minutes plus at certain periods of the game reading PAGES and PAGES and PAGES of text. After the first couple of fresh tries, that’s fine but when you’ve already completed the game a few times and are simply replaying to explore the different multiple routes you never explored before, the text seriously gets in the way. There are only so many times you can care about Sky Spirits and blah, blah, blah. Usually after I’m done with the text the momentum to continue is gone and I’m ready to change game. Problem is it’s a double edged sword as you need to read the text to make an informed choice of what route to go down next. Ultimately it’s not compulsory as you could pick a route ignorant of the story but it won’t stop you feeling like you’ve cheated yourself because there is no taking away from the fact that Guardian Heroes is a well thought out and beautifully crafted game that makes you want to engage in it whole heartedly. 50% less text and the option to skip text in certain places would have been massively welcomed by me with open arms. But unfortunately I have to result to spamming the ‘C’ button or plugging in an auto fire pad just for the sake of speeding up the text when it’s comes to parts in the games story that I know like my own life story.

In 2nd place is Three Dirty Dwarves. What puts this above GH in my opinion is in its sheer ease and light hearted-ness. It’s just a joy to play. It’s also a very tactical beat ‘em’ up as well. Having to keep an eye on the other two dwarves each time one gets tagged out by the AI makes for very multi-layered game playing. Also love how each of the Dwarves have their own unique qualities which means for certain levels, certain Dwarves will take up the lead as they're better equipped to play with certain types of enemies on certain levels. I also had the chance to play this in 3 player mode for the first time ever in 20 years at Christmas and it seriously kicked ass.

1st place is Die Hard Arcade. The easiest of the 3 to pick up and play at anytime. What still amazes me about Die Hard Arcade is it’s extremely detailed in its moves set. Still to this day I’m performing moves with the lead characters that I’ve never knew existed. It always feels fresh. Even though there is no time limit, the music creates a sense of urgency and a level of commitment that you actually want to save that little girl hiding the desk draw. I still enjoy watching all the cut scenes and performing the corridor one button commandments. Those sections still make my heart beat incredibly fast. To get a ‘SUCCESS’ is such an incredible feeling. To miss the attack and end up with a ‘FALIURE’ still feels like the worst feeling in world. It’s that intense but at the same time it never stops being ‘fun’ And that’s the key word. It’s fun through and through. There's a lot of of variety in the gameplay with the inclusion of weapons e.t.c and it lasts for just the right length before the gameplay starts getting tedious which is something that Guardian Heroes suffers from. Even 3 Dirty Dwarves can be a bit long in the tooth at times despite its ease and casual gameplay.

[barryburton]

Die Hard Arcade wins for me, as it's easily the most fun. A perfect sub 1 hour game. As Sych says, there are plenty of new moves to learn. And it's quite difficult, though doable with enough continues and practice.

Guardian Heroes is one of those games where you can appreciate its beauty and quality, yet don't actually enjoy that much once the novelty has worn off. Fantasy story lines rarely interest me that much, so all the text doesn't help. I rarely feel like playing it. But I think I've got unfinished business with it and it deserves another proper try.

Haven't played 3DD yet but want to .

[bultje112]

This one is INCREDIBLY hard for me. I played all 3 for longer period of times and own all 3, I probably played guarduan heroes the least and it's my least favorite of the 3.

My favorite is actually three dirty dwarves just narrowly beating die hard arcade. reason? Simple I can play with 3 players and I've done so countless times with friends. the game is fucking hard and I don't think we ever got past the third level but the game is so intense with 3 players since the amount of enemies increases that way. get a multitap for this game!

I also love die hard arcade because it has very good controls. there are so many moves to do for your characters that it's amazing. however I think it could be argued that the sequel on the dreamcast is even better.

[tempest]

I'm not the biggest beat'em up fan because of the highly repetative gameplay. I loved classics like Double Dragon, Battletoads, Final Fight, and the TMNT games back in the day though.

I haven't played much of Three Dirty Dwarves and didn't really take to its oddball style.

Die Hard Arcade was pretty cool back in the day. I first played it on the demo disc that came with SSM #23 (SEGA Flash vol.4 if memory serves me correctly). I thought it was awesome then but didn't pick up the full game until over a decade later. It's a fun game with a cool licence and the QTEs spice up the gameplay, but it's short lived, repetative, and feels very clunkily put together.

I took a lot of time to warm to Guardian Heroes. I've owned it three times now. The first time I couldn't get over the simplistic gameplay. But over time I have come to love the game for what it is, and appreciate the time Treasure took in adding multiple paths through the story, the vastness of the story, the massive range of endearing characters and so on. And who doesn't love the stylised graphics and cheesy jazzy soundtrack. I feel it's overrated but a fun game every Saturn owner should give a go. And it's my pick for this poll.

[tempest]

May 15, 2017 21:53:11 GMT sych said:

Problem is it’s extremely long winded. You’d be sitting there for 5 minutes plus at certain periods of the game reading PAGES and PAGES and PAGES of text. After the first couple of fresh tries, that’s fine but when you’ve already completed the game a few times and are simply replaying to explore the different multiple routes you never explored before, the text seriously gets in the way. There are only so many times you can care about Sky Spirits and blah, blah, blah. Usually after I’m done with the text the momentum to continue is gone and I’m ready to change game. Problem is it’s a double edged sword as you need to read the text to make an informed choice of what route to go down next. Ultimately it’s not compulsory as you could pick a route ignorant of the story but it won’t stop you feeling like you’ve cheated yourself because there is no taking away from the fact that Guardian Heroes is a well thought out and beautifully crafted game that makes you want to engage in it whole heartedly. 50% less text and the option to skip text in certain places would have been massively welcomed by me with open arms.

Thank you. You've covered an important point about GH that I've not quite been able to articulate from the first moment I played through it. My first playthrough occured after I had been spoilt by the beautiful FMV cutscenes of late fifth gen and early sixth gen RPGs. The story is great but the way it is presented through drawn out reams of text does drag down the game's momentum like you said. In retrospect, it's obvious this was because that's how story was presented in most games leading up to GH's 1996 release. But after the intro cutscene, I was expecting this level of storytelling and was disapointed it wasn't. Videogames are a visual medium, which allows for a different level of storytelling over text. This would have made the story more easily gratifying, bringing out character quirks and making it more appealing.

Still, GH stands as a great example of how the melding of two genres can work.

[barryburton]

I just wish there had been a 2D Streets of Rage on Saturn. SOR2 is my favourite 16 bit game (closely followed by EA Hockey, Sensible Soccer and Micro Machines).

[sych]

May 16, 2017 15:11:11 GMT barryburton said:

I just wish there had been a 2D Streets of Rage on Saturn. SOR2 is my favourite 16 bit game (closely followed by EA Hockey, Sensible Soccer and Micro Machines).

Streets of Rage 3 never gets any love lol. Thats my favorite one. Btw Micro Machines 1 or Micro Machines: Turbo Tournament?

[Sonnington]

SOR2 soundtrack is definitely better. In any event, it's Die Hard Arcade. EZ PZ. Die Hard Arcade really stuck out for me. I'm not big on fighters, but I spent some time on that title.

[barryburton]

May 16, 2017 15:25:07 GMT sych said:

May 16, 2017 15:11:11 GMT barryburton said:

I just wish there had been a 2D Streets of Rage on Saturn. SOR2 is my favourite 16 bit game (closely followed by EA Hockey, Sensible Soccer and Micro Machines).

Streets of Rage 3 never gets any love lol. Thats my favorite one. Btw Micro Machines 1 or Micro Machines: Turbo Tournament?

Never played SOR3, shamefully. Will have a go some time.
I had both of those MM games, loved them. Probably the latter more due to having more content. Was that the one you could make your own tracks? That was fun

[Ted]

May 18, 2017 7:06:18 GMT barryburton said:

May 16, 2017 15:25:07 GMT sych said:

Streets of Rage 3 never gets any love lol. Thats my favorite one. Btw Micro Machines 1 or Micro Machines: Turbo Tournament?

Never played SOR3, shamefully. Will have a go some time.
I had both of those MM games, loved them. Probably the latter more due to having more content. Was that the one you could make your own tracks? That was fun

I think that was Micro Machines 96. The same game to MM2 except there's a track editor added (which was in the MS-DOS version of 2), plus some new music and a few other tracks.

[macchinmi]

The answer to this is clearly Guardian Heroes. However I am biased as this is still in my top 5 games of all time.