saskatoon
Saturn Player
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Post by saskatoon on Feb 1, 2013 16:20:01 GMT
Thanks a bunch OMP!!
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NeoGeoNinja
Shadow Warrior
Joined: August 2011
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Post by NeoGeoNinja on Feb 1, 2013 16:21:42 GMT
It's interesting to compare these VA0 schematics to the later, more highly-integrated VA13. Instead of trying to rescan and edit these though I think a lot of it we could recreate manually be rewriting it all into a new document if the quality is an issue for a lot of people. The quality is fine, and frankly I don't know if I'd trust a transcribed version. IT WOULDN'T... be "transcribed" as you put it. I imagine it would be re-set and vectorised. It happens all over the world. Every single day. Nothing is lost in the "translation"
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Post by zyrobs on Feb 1, 2013 18:13:26 GMT
The quality in these ended up pretty good. It sucks that the TIFFs are 1 color instead of greyscale, I'll have to figure out a way to split the PDFs losslessly.
Yes, it would be indeed good to vectorize these (especially the schematics), if for nothing else but so you can use ctrl+f. But with so much technical info inside, I wouldn't trust any OCR or manual transcribing, not even my own (which I'll have to do later).
I think those PDFs ended up very good in the end, it's just a shame that they are in PDFs and not separate files. But if the other manuals end up like this, there'll be no room to complain.
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Post by TrekkiesUnite118 on Feb 1, 2013 18:43:10 GMT
I don't think vectorizing anything but the schematics will help much. The damage to the text quality is obviously from being multi-generational photocopy. While it's still very good and readable, there are some areas where it's a bit rough. Making that into a vector image wont restore the missing chunks of the letters or make it any easier to read. You will still have the same missing portions of the letters.
While you guys might not trust it, I think the better way to get the text information stored in a future proof format would be to retype it by hand. If you had more than one person doing it and having people spot checking there's no reason for it to have errors or be untrustworthy.
Vectorizing the schematics could work though.
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Post by zyrobs on Feb 1, 2013 19:49:58 GMT
I don't think vectorizing anything but the schematics will help much. The damage to the text quality is obviously from being multi-generational photocopy. While it's still very good and readable, there are some areas where it's a bit rough. Making that into a vector image wont restore the missing chunks of the letters or make it any easier to read. You will still have the same missing portions of the letters. OCR could automatically convert most of the text, and it would be far easier to double check for anything missing, than to re-type the entire document. As for why vectorizing the documents would help, press CTRL+F.
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Post by TrekkiesUnite118 on Feb 1, 2013 20:41:43 GMT
OCR might be able to do it, but then again it might not for some of the worse portions. I've had OCR completely screw up on scans that were in better condition than these.
And I get the CTRL+F argument, but I don't see how getting a vector image of damaged text could possibly give you the ability to search the document. OCR or retyping it would give you that benefit though.
Your methods are sound and make sense for the situations you've mentioned earlier such as Comic Book archiving, high quality document archiving, and what not. For this though it's overkill and most likely wont help as the source documents are multi-generational, degraded photocopies. Vectorizing text that's damaged from photocopying isn't going to restore what's missing or make it easier to read or allow the computer to recognize it. It's just going to give you a vector version of the same damaged text.
I don't think there's much you can do with photoshop or any other editing software to improve the quality of these scans. Photoshop can do lots of things, but it can't restore missing information. Which is why I think trying to fix up the raw scans would be a waste of time. It would most likely be more worthwhile in the long run to reconstruct the documents if the quality really bothers you.
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mick_aka
Kickin' it lively!
"Mick is moderately adequate."
Joined: April 2007
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Post by mick_aka on Feb 3, 2013 1:31:56 GMT
OMP I will host them on our webspace, email them to: mick(at)segasaturn.co.uk If you are worried about file sizes you can whack them on a CDR and mail them to me? I'll host them in the highest possible quality, perhaps with some alternate lower quality downloads? Then everyone is happy
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retro
Saturn Player
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Post by retro on Feb 12, 2013 1:23:40 GMT
Whilst I bit my tongue at first, I really have to express how appalled I am at people in this thread and their attitude towards omp and others. I appreciate that you've chipped in to secure these manuals, but it doesn't give you the right to bully someone into doing things your way. Be grateful that omp is doing this at all. It takes a great deal of time and effort, especially if you don't know what you're doing, to scan in one manual like this, let alone several. If you want to offer friendly advice on what settings are best to scan documents, that's great. If you can see where someone has gone wrong with their scans, thank them for their effort and politely suggest that they may have improved on that by doing this. Telling people their work looks "god awful" or stamping your feet like a child and repeatedly saying words to the effect of "this is why I wanted to get these and do it myself" is neither polite nor constructive. Briefly, I have a lot of experience with professional scanning and printing and am amazed at some of the statements that have come out here. PDF is THE INDUSTRY STANDARD for distributing documents like this online. If you get a business card or a brochure designed, you can be sure the designer will sent a PDF to the printer. And, unless the designer has locked it, the printer is able to edit that PDF if need be. It is not difficult to extract stuff from it at all - a PDF will open up in Photoshop and ask what page you want to open! Distributing a 600dpi TIFF document is overkill and wasteful of bandwidth. I can print a 300dpi JPEG file on photographic paper and you wouldn't know - it would look stunning. As far as I know, retro has a bunch of these docs but he's a hoarder and won't scan them. Here's some friendly advice, zyrobs. Internet forums, being a textual format, do not convey tone well. If you were serious.... - Yes, I have several manuals. - Yes, I have stated that I won't distribute them. - These are my property and NOBODY has a God-given right to have a copy. - My time is worth money. - Scanning these documents would vastly affect any resale value, should I ever consider selling them. - If you really wanted me to scan them, you would have approached me in a friendly manner and made me an offer that would have been worth my while. NOBODY has done this (although I assume mostly because they respect my decision). - You do not have a right to moan because I won't share my property with you. - You do not know my reasons for not wanting to share, nor do you have any right to make derogatory assumptions. However, despite your tirade on this thread, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and take your comment in jest. In which case, I'll say - woah, have we met? You've got me there Mick - apologies for having a rant myself, but I felt rather strongly about this.
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saskatoon
Saturn Player
Joined: January 2013
Posts: 111
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Post by saskatoon on Feb 12, 2013 2:49:25 GMT
Out of curiosity do you have any plans to sell the manuals? I mean I would gladly offer you $100 CDN if monetary gain is what you are really after. That is what the original seller got plus 25 percent.
I personally would like to see the repair manuals spread amongst those who can use them and if you really need to feed your greed so be it. I feel the need outweighs the cost. I could use the manuals and would much rather share them.
You are entitled to your opinion, but in my opinion those manuals aren't your property. They are knowledge, which should be the right of everybody and not restricted to the privileged.
If you want to sell the manuals please PM me. I am sure others here would extend the offer. We clearly have no problems doing fundraising for these manuals, why not keep the money on the forum.
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retro
Saturn Player
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Post by retro on Feb 12, 2013 4:55:43 GMT
Out of curiosity do you have any plans to sell the manuals? I mean I would gladly offer you $100 CDN if monetary gain is what you are really after. That is what the original seller got plus 25 percent. I personally would like to see the repair manuals spread amongst those who can use them and if you really need to feed your greed so be it. I feel the need outweighs the cost. I could use the manuals and would much rather share them. You are entitled to your opinion, but in my opinion those manuals aren't your property. They are knowledge, which should be the right of everybody and not restricted to the privileged. If you want to sell the manuals please PM me. I am sure others here would extend the offer. We clearly have no problems doing fundraising for these manuals, why not keep the money on the forum. If you're talking to me, no I don't have any plans to sell them for any price. Their value to me is far more than any monetary offer. I'm afraid you are incorrect there - these manuals ARE my property. That is not an opinion, that is FACT. Just because you would like to see the information in them, doesn't mean you have a right to do so. And I can, and do, make use of them. Please don't assume you know anything about me or what I do with my manuals, because you obviously don't. Do you perhaps see why I don't like to even discuss my owning these manuals at all? Whilst you may not have intended it, talking about "my greed" and you having a God given right to the information therein just because you'd like it, I'm afraid is rather insulting. Likewise, I know you were making a serious offer there, but you must be able to tell from the price some of these photocopied manuals went for that your low offer was a bit of an insult, too. I can tell you that I paid a great deal more than you offered. Sorry, but these items ARE my property and I'm not going to sell, nor am I going to be bullied into sharing them.
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saskatoon
Saturn Player
Joined: January 2013
Posts: 111
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Post by saskatoon on Feb 12, 2013 6:10:15 GMT
Out of curiosity do you have any plans to sell the manuals? I mean I would gladly offer you $100 CDN if monetary gain is what you are really after. That is what the original seller got plus 25 percent. I personally would like to see the repair manuals spread amongst those who can use them and if you really need to feed your greed so be it. I feel the need outweighs the cost. I could use the manuals and would much rather share them. You are entitled to your opinion, but in my opinion those manuals aren't your property. They are knowledge, which should be the right of everybody and not restricted to the privileged. If you want to sell the manuals please PM me. I am sure others here would extend the offer. We clearly have no problems doing fundraising for these manuals, why not keep the money on the forum. If you're talking to me, no I don't have any plans to sell them for any price. Their value to me is far more than any monetary offer. I'm afraid you are incorrect there - these manuals ARE my property. That is not an opinion, that is FACT. Just because you would like to see the information in them, doesn't mean you have a right to do so. And I can, and do, make use of them. Please don't assume you know anything about me or what I do with my manuals, because you obviously don't. Do you perhaps see why I don't like to even discuss my owning these manuals at all? Whilst you may not have intended it, talking about "my greed" and you having a God given right to the information therein just because you'd like it, I'm afraid is rather insulting. Likewise, I know you were making a serious offer there, but you must be able to tell from the price some of these photocopied manuals went for that your low offer was a bit of an insult, too. I can tell you that I paid a great deal more than you offered. Sorry, but these items ARE my property and I'm not going to sell, nor am I going to be bullied into sharing them. I think your intentions with the manuals are quite clear. "- These are my property and NOBODY has a God-given right to have a copy. - My time is worth money. - Scanning these documents would vastly affect any resale value, should I ever consider selling them. - If you really wanted me to scan them, you would have approached me in a friendly manner and made me an offer that would have been worth my while. NOBODY has done this (although I assume mostly because they respect my decision)." You clearly state your time is worth money, we aren't talking about god given rights we are talking about capitalism and the spread of knowledge here. That if you did scan the manuals the monetary value would be affected. You go on that if somebody really wanted them they would approach you with a friendly offer that is worth your while. I made you a friendly offer, you clearly declined stating I don't know anything about you or your intentions with the manuals. Quite frankly I think I know enough and your intentions are clear as day. Nobody wants to bully anybody into anything. If you don't want to share them you don't have to, I was just taking you up on your offer.
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NeoGeoNinja
Shadow Warrior
Joined: August 2011
Posts: 6,616
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Post by NeoGeoNinja on Feb 12, 2013 10:16:20 GMT
AS A COMMUNITY MEMBER... I don't like either stance, I have to be honest. The same goes for PPL who own proto's who don't want to dump them either.
The grey area is that the works which become privately owned are (surely?) ultimately not the intellectual property of the current owner - games, manuals or otherwise. However, if they own the ONLY copy of said works in existence, they own exactly that - a legitimate copy of that game, manual, music etc.
I can understand communities being bitter about AN INDIVIDUAL keeping proto's or manuals to themselves, but if they have paid a considerable amount to own them, then... they own them. You cannot expect PPL to pay multiple zero-figure sums for an item, just to distribute it for FREE into a community.
As what happened with the likes of Geist Force for Dreamcast (for example) a SENSIBLE fee needs to arrived at for the cost of the item and the time (in most cases) spent resourcing and acquiring it.
I don't like either opposing attitudes though, although I will sympathise that both are brought about by one another - a catch 22 if you will:
Why should I share this with you when you feel your freely entitled to it and belittle my owning it in the process?
vs
Why are you hoarding documentation which could enrich the knowledge and know-how of a passionate community?
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A no win situation, for the community tbh. A healthy, respectful and mutual medium must be met for any such documentation to see a release into the wild. And it won't be for free. No one can be that naive...
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Post by zyrobs on Feb 12, 2013 10:42:03 GMT
I'll post a full reply later this evening because I'm at work right now; but you guys should now that retros opinion on us, posted on assemblergames, is this:
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Post by Syntesis on Feb 12, 2013 13:51:13 GMT
If you have no intention of selling them at any price then surely any depreciation in value is irrelevant?
What if we paid the print shop fee to have the manuals professionally scanned? That way none of your time and money is spent.
As a longtime member of Assembler aren't you all about the preservation of old games and information? Do you really want this stuff to die with you?
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saskatoon
Saturn Player
Joined: January 2013
Posts: 111
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Post by saskatoon on Feb 12, 2013 16:24:14 GMT
Wow. Good find Zyrobs.
I think Retro has shown his true character and it lacks integrity.
It is pricks like you who don't even believe in sharing. How dare you go around calling other people names because they took you up on YOUR offer. Just because I pointed out your greed is stopping us all form having the manuals, which it is, whether you would like to admit or not.
You can act like you are holier than thou and like you have some grand friggin' plan for the manuals but you don't. You intend to sell them for maximum profit, instead of taking some cash to make scans and keeping the originals. Why won't you do that? Because you intend to sell these one day. I am sure we could easily scratch up the cost you paid for the Sega Saturn repair manual so you wouldn't be out anything. But that probably isn't good enough because then you would have to share, which you clearly don't like to do.
You can call me whatever names you like but I believe in karma, and with your attitude something tells me that yours isn't very good. I know my mother would be appalled if her son acted that way.
The muppets and pricks here would be hosting the manuals for ALL, every site that wanted them could use them, every person that could benefit from them could have that opportunity. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
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