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Post by buckoa51 on Feb 3, 2013 0:58:45 GMT
I believe this was discussed a while back and many didn't believe there was a difference between Model 1 and Model 2 video output, well seems there is a small difference:- www.retrorgb.com/SaturnThough he says not to use a raw sync cable and I'm using one with my Model 2 with zero issues, in fact it gives a much better picture on e.g Daytona where using composite video for sync gives dot crawl over certain colours. Anyway, just a FYI, the differences are minimal.
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NeoGeoNinja
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Post by NeoGeoNinja on Feb 3, 2013 12:40:18 GMT
CHEERS BUCKO... when you look at the pictures, as stills, there's quite a difference actually. It's not huge in all things general, but in context, it's noticeable imo, especially when comparing M1 Raw to M2 RGB and still when comparing M1 RGB to M2 RGB. Sure it's not enough to make me sell my Model 2's for Model 1's (I'm too shallow when it comes to aesthetics!) but it's certainly worth thinking about if using your Saturn (like I suspect you do?) with upscalers. For general CRT use, I wouldn't be too concerned (as the article suggests)
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Post by buckoa51 on Feb 3, 2013 18:24:18 GMT
Likewise I'm not concerned enough to sell my Model 2 despite being a picture quality whore. I've also found my Model 2 to work ok with my upscalers as long as I use raw sync, so I guess not all model 2's are the same either, picture quality wise.
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Post by Syntesis on Feb 3, 2013 20:20:09 GMT
"I don't own a PlayStation and never thought of it as a retro gaming console." "I never thought the Dreamcast was a "retro" system and I really don't have much interest in it." Oh, he's one of those people... On topic, I have had 2 model ones and 2 model twos. All this talk was completely news to me and it was never spoken of back in the day. In anything other than a side by side comparison I can't imagine anyone being able to look at 10 screenshots each of different games (5 from each model) and being able to correctly identify which model Saturn was used in all 10 shots.
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Post by FuturePrimitive on Feb 3, 2013 20:58:19 GMT
I don't typically do this on first impressions (and forgive me for saying this), but this guy on retrorgb.com sounds like a delusional prick. Why would you be subjective, biased, and jaded if you want to "inform" someone about a queue of comparative photos that show minimal difference in quality??
If I were to make a petty opinion about HIM, I'd say he's not playing video games properly! Quit spinning your wheels about faux technical BS and broaden your horizons! It won't kill ya to play a game or two on a system that you aren't familiar with. Explore and stop being such a xenophobe about flipping video games. "I'm not familiar with that! I'm scared and automatically undermine it as utter crap. I'm always right and your non-retro consoles are icky."
Of course the PS1 and Dreamcast are retro! They were made in the past jackass!
Sorry. Rant over. Carry on.
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Post by Syntesis on Feb 3, 2013 21:28:29 GMT
I agree I can't stand people like that. If he's not interested in them then fine but to try to rationalise it by saying that they are not retro is just plain daft.
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Post by MIK on Feb 3, 2013 22:48:49 GMT
Interesting but like you say not enough to worry about it. My Pal girls as in my Model 1 is as is factory shipped and my Model 2 is switched. Happy with both for different reasons.
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Post by zyrobs on Feb 3, 2013 23:55:50 GMT
That article is silly for numerous reasons. - The distinction between each hardware versions is far wider than "model 1 vs model 2", there are at least 4 different motherboard types for Model 1 and at least 8 for Model 2, out of which two are IDENTICAL between the two models, sans the plastic. - There are also differences between PAL and USA models too, regarding picture quality. - Age and wear can also play a part and may be unevenly distributed across machines still working today. - The results may also vary depending on the TV set (to which all the above applies as well). - Different displays may handle raw sync differently than composite sync - Contact errors can make one cable with/without raw sync act up, skewing the results... I thought one of my units was broken when it was just the RGB cable acting up. - Sufficient cable shielding should prevent crosstalk, which is the main reason why raw sync cables look better... aftermarket cables nearly all have crap shielding, while official cables have much better ones.
And the screenshot comparisons appear to be photographs, not direct screen captures (one of the XRGBs can do direct screen capture), so they don't even reflect a TV screen accurately.
The only difference I've personally seen after testing ~20 different PAL Saturns is that VA7 PAL, VA9, and VA13 PAL units have a small ripple in the screen on my plasma, not present on any other PAL model nor on a VA7 NTSC one. However this ripple doesn't happen on my CRT TV, so it's likely just the plasma being too sensitive.
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Post by Syntesis on Feb 4, 2013 0:03:34 GMT
zyrobs laying down the smackdown.
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Post by Oho on Feb 4, 2013 0:06:08 GMT
That article is silly for numerous reasons. - The distinction between each hardware versions is far wider than "model 1 vs model 2", there are at least 4 different motherboard types for Model 1 and at least 8 for Model 2, out of which two are IDENTICAL between the two models, sans the plastic. - There are also differences between PAL and USA models too, regarding picture quality. - Age and wear can also play a part and may be unevenly distributed across machines still working today. - The results may also vary depending on the TV set (to which all the above applies as well). - Different displays may handle raw sync differently than composite sync - Contact errors can make one cable with/without raw sync act up, skewing the results... I thought one of my units was broken when it was just the RGB cable acting up. - Sufficient cable shielding should prevent crosstalk, which is the main reason why raw sync cables look better... aftermarket cables nearly all have crap shielding, while official cables have much better ones. And the screenshot comparisons appear to be photographs, not direct screen captures (one of the XRGBs can do direct screen capture), so they don't even reflect a TV screen accurately. The only difference I've personally seen after testing ~20 different PAL Saturns is that VA7 PAL, VA9, and VA13 PAL units have a small ripple in the screen on my plasma, not present on any other PAL model nor on a VA7 NTSC one. However this ripple doesn't happen on my CRT TV, so it's likely just the plasma being too sensitive. +1
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RetroRGB
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Post by RetroRGB on May 6, 2013 17:39:42 GMT
Hi Everyone, Someone just today sent me a link to this forum and I really wish I'd found it sooner. Up until last month, my website wasn't finished, it was just a work in progress. I'm not sure how buckoa51 found my page, but I imagine that at the time of his post (Feb 3rd) it was still in very basic form. Anyway, the Saturn page has been updated a lot since then. My conclusions are pretty much the same, however the way I present things is much different. The page you guys saw must have seemed like I said "all model 2's won't work with RAW sync cables". Sorry about that. zyrobs - I agree with almost all of your points and I think my Saturn page now makes that clear. Also, I did take the necessary precautions to make sure all of the Saturn consoles I tested were on the same RGB monitor, with the same set of cables (I had two different types of each cable, both with the proper shielding). All of the comparisons on my site are like that: I went out of my way to make sure all of the factors were the same. There's one point of yours I strongly disagree with: Photos vs. screen captures. I have hundreds of pictures on my site. None were "snapped with an iPhone", they were all taken by me personally, with a DSLR, using a prime lens, tri-pod and the same manual settings. Also, the camera was always at the same height, in the same place, the same distance away. Finally, all comparison shots for each system were taken at the same time. Said differently, I didn't take "Saturn shot #1" on a Saturday morning and then "Saturn picture #2" a week later on a Friday night...every time a picture comparison was taken, it was one right after the other to make sure the lighting was identical. As a result, the pictures reflect exactly what my eyes saw on my Sony PVM RGB monitor. Screen captures via an RGB capture card become complicated. I actually toyed with the idea of buying a Matrox RGB video capture card to do the comparisons, but that added so many different factors...the most important being that playing a video of an RGB signal via YouTube on your laptop is really not a good representation of what the console is actually outputting. You need to see it on a monitor, with scanlines in order to really grasp the differences. @ FuturePrimitive & Syntesis - I actually removed my "retro" comments almost immediately after I started uploading the site. I'm almost 32, so I grew up with NES, then SNES & Genesis. After the 16-bit era, I lost interest in video games for a big chunk of time and didn't really start playing again until the NDS & Wii. As a result, to me, "retro" means 16-bit and prior...which is a really unfair thing to say to someone who's currently in their early 20's. To them, GameCube is retro...and in a few years the Wii will be retro, etc. Even though my site is called "RetroRGB", it's really about all consoles in the pre-HDTV era, so I tried to remove any comments like that. That being said, you must admit, you guys jumped to quite a big conclusion about me in your defamatory comments. Just because I mainly enjoy side-scrollers and older-style games, doesn't mean I'm a jackass, it's just what I prefer. Also, even though I don't enjoy a lot of the Saturn and Dreamcast games, I still spent a great deal of time trying to find out how to get the best out of them. This is for two reasons: 1) When I do play those games, I want them to look awesome. 2) I want to help other people do the same. Even if you don't agree with my opinions, bashing me for trying to help other people wasn't exactly the nicest thing for you to do. If you guys have any comments or questions, I welcome you to respond. I always try to use both positive and negative feedback to make my site better.
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Post by buckoa51 on May 6, 2013 18:24:05 GMT
I'd recommend getting yourself a PEXHDCAP capture card, it's the best card for doing RGB capture. I personally applaud you for going to the trouble to do this kind of test, but that's the kind of perfectionist I am
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RetroRGB
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Post by RetroRGB on May 6, 2013 19:12:06 GMT
I'd recommend getting yourself a PEXHDCAP capture card, it's the best card for doing RGB capture. I personally applaud you for going to the trouble to do this kind of test, but that's the kind of perfectionist I am Thanks for the info! I looked at that card and it seems it has HDMI, DVI, VGA and component capture abilities. Are you sure it can handle RGB as well? If nothing else, I'd really like to capture video from SNES to further demonstrate the difference between versions. I'd also love to do a composite-vs-RGB video for the NES.
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Post by infernalcombustion on May 6, 2013 19:24:10 GMT
I've 'stumbled' across your site before retrorgb, and although obviously a 'work in progress', I can honestly say that I didn't find anything remotely objectionable about anything you've posted thus far. I certainly haven't taken offence at any of your comments regarding the Saturn (or any other systems for that matter) OR felt the need to add to the derisive comments already posted here, that's for sure. Actualy, I enjoy reading other peoples opinions of ANY system - good or bad. So keep doing what you're doing.
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Post by buckoa51 on May 6, 2013 19:27:34 GMT
It handles RGB and most importantly RGB at native 240p (rather than converting it to 480i like all other capture cards). Have a look on my website for some detailed info on it. It can't capture composite or s-video though.
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