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Post by bradcap1 on Jul 6, 2014 22:40:53 GMT
I know a lot of people here aren't fans, but I'd recommend the Toshinden games. Even on the PS Tohshinden is a steaming pile of dogshit. On the Saturn it's a horrible looking steaming pile of dogshit.
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Post by zyrobs on Jul 7, 2014 3:11:34 GMT
I know a lot of people here aren't fans, but I'd recommend the Toshinden games. Even on the PS Tohshinden is a steaming pile of dogshit. On the Saturn it's a horrible looking steaming pile of dogshit. The first, Japanese Toshinden release was pretty fucking good. The problem was that with every localization, and every sequel, they kept making the game worse and worse.
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Post by fightingvipers2 on Jul 7, 2014 10:43:27 GMT
Dead or Alive on Saturn is as good as the playstation version, well worth owning. LastBronx doesn't get enough love its a great fighter. FightingVipers is my favourite fighter on Saturn love it to bits.
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Post by bradcap1 on Jul 7, 2014 17:09:05 GMT
Even on the PS Tohshinden is a steaming pile of dogshit. On the Saturn it's a horrible looking steaming pile of dogshit. The first, Japanese Toshinden release was pretty fucking good. The problem was that with every localization, and every sequel, they kept making the game worse and worse. We definitely have different definitions of "pretty fucking good." The first game looked nice on the PS but played like shit. A button masher's heaven. Anyway to the OP, stick with VF2 and DOA and you can't go wrong.
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Post by zyrobs on Jul 7, 2014 18:39:57 GMT
The first game was Streetfighter 2 in 3d with a side-roll move and stiff controls (and worse balance). The localizations screwed up every single voice in the game sadly, the original Japanese voices were great and they changed them to stupidly exaggerated accents.
For the sequels, they just slowly changed everything to the worse.
Toshinden 3 was a fun party game though, partially because of how over the top some of the attacks and secret characters were (you could have Jason Voorhees face off Michael Jackson...). But they never did release that for the Saturn.
The PC version of the first game was the best, it had super silky smooth controls and much smoother movement animation too, plus the original voice acting (mostly intact). They skimped on the backgrounds a lot, but in return the game supported every damn hardware under the sun at the time (modems, gamepads, 3d accelerators!), and it had friggin Earthworm Jim as a reskinned Rungo.
The Saturn versions, both of them, had worse graphics and even more unresponsive controls... They added some pretty awesome extra audio though. Cupido's theme from Toshinden Remix is perhaps the best song in the entire series.
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Post by fightingvipers2 on Jul 7, 2014 20:27:55 GMT
only part of toshinden I like on Saturn is at the start credits where you get the SEGA voice then straight after TAKARA that makes me smile, takes me back to the days when you heard the words SEGA everywhere you turned. Makes me sad that SEGA is not like that anymore.
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Post by Oho on Jul 7, 2014 23:21:38 GMT
If you want the 4 horsemen of shit fighting games, it is these: Criticom, Rise 2, D-Xhird and Toshinden URA. I can't really talk about the other versions of Toshinden since I haven't played them yet but I will get to it eventually for my reviews. Avoid like the plague. NGN pretty much hit the nail on the head in the first response.
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NeoGeoNinja
Shadow Warrior
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Post by NeoGeoNinja on Jul 8, 2014 0:30:33 GMT
FYI, Toshinden S is LESS PLAYABLE than Toshinden URA. I realise, to many, that's like saying that there is a worse version of Hardcore 4x4 etc, but... it is what it is. I need to revisit URA. I remember S/Remix being particularly sh*tty (but, in parts, nicer to look at than the PS1 original?) but I seem to remember thinking URA was ok/average. Not complete and utter dogsh*t. Perhaps, as Zyrobs has alluded to, having the PS1 back in the day with Toshinden early on, opinions and nostalgia can be screwed. Whilst I don't agree with everything Zyrobs has said (re: good character designs etc), some of what he has said is/was true. Toshinden WAS cool when it came out. It was a "3D" 2D fighter, with a new cast of characters, primarily unique due to their all brandishing weapons. It played 'fine' for the moment it was released, but was soon usurped by the likes of VF2 and Tekken. Toshinden 3 on PS1 was actually alright. Again, not up to SEGA/Namco/Tecmo standards, but much improved > prequels. It even had a nifty resolution mode, whereby you could choose framerate > detail (I always went with framerate personally, as it was 60fps > 30fps). However, can you believe, that Toshinden 4 is actually the WORST in the series. Yes. Worst. Worse or on par with D-Xhird. Oho: I like your four-horsemen analogy. You might want to take a look at: FIST and Pretty Fighter X in future though. See how those 'fit in'
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Post by Oho on Jul 8, 2014 1:34:42 GMT
FYI, Toshinden S is LESS PLAYABLE than Toshinden URA. Man, I think it has to be a game I need to play very soon and review. People on reddit seem to think I only play games I hate and that all my reviews are negative. I need to revisit URA. I remember S/Remix being particularly sh*tty (but, in parts, nicer to look at than the PS1 original?) but I seem to remember thinking URA was ok/average. Not complete and utter dogsh*t. There were some things that annoyed me too much to let it slide. See my review for deets. Maybe I might change my opinion slightly for URA if S is far worse. Oho: I like your four-horsemen analogy. You might want to take a look at: FIST and Pretty Fighter X in future though. See how those 'fit in' Thanks, will do. FIST doesn't look too bad (even though it looks like it is completely absent of a background) but Pretty Fighter X looks horrible. I am on a spending freeze at the moment anyway, NGN. So I will buy and review them probably next year at this rate.
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Post by zyrobs on Jul 8, 2014 3:25:58 GMT
I think Remix controls worse than URA, from memory. URA controlled okay-ish, it was just that they fucked up character moves so much on Toshinden 2 (which it is a port of) that it feels... very odd. I dunno. Floaty or something. Most of the lag seems to be not from the input but from special attacks and filler animations in your moves. While Remix just... has horrible controller lag. That's how I remember it, I'd need to play them again to be sure.
Toshinden 1 looked fantastic at the time but then just a little later it was up against Tekken which had way more impressive motion captured animation. Then Tekken kept evolving forwards, Toshinden kept evolving backwards. They even tried copying Soul Blade in Toshinden 4. I'd need to play it again to remember how it handled though - I didn't play it much, I hated the new cast. Eiji as the final boss was awesome though.
The only thing I remember Remix doing better than the playstation game is Cupidos music, and maybe Gaias background effect. I think the knight had curtains on the background that got raised during gameplay? I don't know if that was in the playstation game.
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Post by Anthaemia. on Jul 8, 2014 14:11:01 GMT
Toshinden 3 was a fun party game though... But they never did release that for the Saturn. Although it's assumed that Sony had a contract with Takara to ensure that Battle Arena Toshinden remained a PlayStation exclusive, this was never actually the case. Just as they did with many Psygnosis titles and Mortal Kombat 3 to name just a few examples, the actual deal was that any games appeared first on the PS for six months, though conversions were never explicitly ruled out... However, in the case of the Toshinden series, there was a further condition to this agreement. Just as MK3 was ported in its revised Ultimate form, Sega of America openly rejected the original finished Saturn port of Toshinden, requesting several last minute alterations that led to development team Nextech producing what became known as the Remix edition. Similarly, for its sequel, Sega didn't just want a straight port of Toshinden 2, but rather something they could take pride in compared with the original PS source. Rather than retrofitting their already existing work, Nextech built URA for the ground up, which explains why it looked far better compared with its predecessor, making use of the Saturn's high resolution mode. As for Toshinden 3, again Nextech wanted to do something very different, gaining so much experience programming various Saturn games (including BioHazard/Resident Evil for Capcom and even beginning work on the sequel before it was cancelled in early 1998 to be replaced by Code: Veronica for the Dreamcast) that they showed off an impressive tech demo known as Project DDD. Rather than just being used to power an upgraded conversion of Toshinden 3, Takara gave the green light for a standalone game - now retitled D-Xhird - and even allows the makers to include Eiji Shinjo from the Toshinden series as a bonus character. In fact, the solid ring surrounds of D-Xhird were originally created to see if the Saturn could handle the walls of Toshinden 3. I'd be willing to bet that Nextech was one of the few third party software developers that had access to the later versions of SGL due to both Fighting Vipers and D-Xhird having real time light sourcing, Gouraud shading plus actual 3D elements in addition to the two battling characters. Indeed, it's possible Nextech was using SGL OS 2.1, if not a later revision. P.S. My votes for the real "four horsemen" go to Fist, Rise 2, Criticom and Final Fight Revenge!
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Post by Oho on Jul 8, 2014 23:01:24 GMT
Ooooooooo, Final Fight Revenge. Didn't even think of that game. I don't own it but it looks dreadful.
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Post by dquick on Jul 9, 2014 12:51:10 GMT
Final Fight isn't that bad. Sure it's awful by Capcom standards, but it isn't the worst of the worst on offer on the Saturn. I can play and enjoy Final Fight Revenge, that is a lot more than I can say for some of the other games mentioned.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 17:40:17 GMT
One 3D fighter worth checking out is Savaki. Probably the most obscure fighter on the system.
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Post by Anthaemia. on Jul 9, 2014 21:30:41 GMT
I know this isn't an opinion shared by many here (or anywhere else, for that matter!), but I really don't see why Takara's fighters on the Saturn are mocked so frequently. Sure, they're never going to threaten Virtua Fighter 2, Last Bronx and Dead Or Alive in fan polls, though I'm actually quite impartial to both Toshinden games. As for D-Xhird, it's often criticised for looking great yet playing far too slow. Based on my own comparisons, Soul Edge/Blade isn't that much faster - I just suspect a lot of the negativity is from people who favour a much faster pace, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Additionally, while we're discussing some of the more obscure titles in this genre for our favourite console, I've tried on countless occasions to "get" Savaki. While it's definitely impressive as a technical showcase of what even third party developers could do with Sega's 32-bit later on, this is one I struggle to play for any lengthy period. Indeed, despite the smooth frame rate, it makes D-Xhird almost seem like it's rocket-powered! Despite being quite a rare example on the platform of a more serious, sports-based title, Savaki comes a distant second to All Japan Pro Wrestling Featuring Virtua.
Now, let's return to worshipping Fighters Megamix...
P.S. Is there any reason why Final Fight Revenge needed the 4MB RAM cartridge when other visually superior alternatives didn't, or was Capcom just looking for another excuse to continue supporting this upgrade?
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