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Post by dtss on Jul 25, 2015 13:40:00 GMT
No prob Brian. Thanks anyways. It's pretty cheap so I think I'll pick it up!
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sych
"Living for the fantasy" -NIGHTS INTO DREAMS- The Classic Saturn Gem!!!
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Post by sych on Jul 26, 2015 10:48:28 GMT
Street Fighter Alpha 2> Street Fighter Zero 3 It's actually the other way around. Due to Streetfighter Collection buying SFA2 is completely pointless. I don't know how SFZ3 could ever be a redundant Saturn purchase. But the stand alone SFA2 is very much redundant due to SF Collection. Of course Virtua Cop and Panzer Dragoon are classics but that doesn't make them void of redundancy. If you own Panzer Dragoon Zwei and Virtua Cop 2 why would you bother owning the originals? What are those earlier games offering that you can't get in the much bigger and better sequels? The Bust-A-Moves series are all good games in their own right but is it necessary to own all 3? With the amount of undiscovered gems on the Saturn why would you bog yourself down with inferior versions in a franchise? Which is why HotD is more relevant than the original VC despite its flaws. This whole redundancy thing seems to go on gameplay evolution and the like. I go for originals because they still offer stuff unique to them, like soundtracks, visuals and vibes. I will buy a game for the soundtrack, that makes it worth owning for me. Like WipEout - I know that 2097/XL is a superior sequel, but the sheer atmosphere of the first, it's vibes and OST make it a must have for me, as a WipEout fan. Same with Virtua Cop and Panzer Dragoon. If you're only after the core gameplay, then yeah, I'll concede you go for the most polished and refined iteration of a franchise. That's not why I collect for the Saturn though, games I love have my ideal mix of visuals, gameplay mechanics, music and nostalgia - I couldn't skip or slight a good iteration of a franchise just because the sequel did what sequels are supposed to and build on what came before. See I understand that. But for me a kick ass soundtrack isn't enough for me to want to hold on to a game. If I love the soundtrack so much then I'll stick it on my ipod as I have with games like Wachenroder and Enemy Zero. If it doesn't have any gameplay advantages over its sequel then its pointless imo. I buy games for the sheer sake of gameplay and nothing else. Like yourself I have over 100 Saturn games. I get round to playing ALL of them every 3/4 months or so. None of my games sit there collecting dust, years on years out. Inferior versions in a franchise are the easiest games to ignore and the ones that will most likely pick up dust. If you're still finding time for those earlier versions then that's great. But for me I could never justify loading up the likes of VC, PD or VF knowing I have better alternatives in each franchise. When my taste buds got round to yearning a Panzer Dragoon experience. Id look at PD & PD2 and pick up PD2 everytime. Same with the VC & VF series, I'd load up VF2, VC2. There came a point where I didnt play VC1 or PD1 for up to 5 years so they just sat there collecting dust. And when that happens it's pointless and redundant so they had to be sold off. I have nothing against those earlier games but for me I'd rather play the best of the best from each franchise. Theres just too much Saturn goodness to warrant spending anytime on inferior versions. But like I said if you can still find the time for those earlier versions that's great, personally I can't.
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akumajobelmont
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Post by akumajobelmont on Jul 26, 2015 11:24:07 GMT
Street Fighter Alpha 2> Street Fighter Zero 3 It's actually the other way around. Due to Streetfighter Collection buying SFA2 is completely pointless. I don't know how SFA3 cold ever be a redundant Saturn purchase. But the stand alone SFA2 is very much redundant. This whole redundancy thing seems to go on gameplay evolution and the like. I go for originals because they still offer stuff unique to them, like soundtracks, visuals and vibes. I will buy a game for the soundtrack, that makes it worth owning for me. Like WipEout - I know that 2097/XL is a superior sequel, but the sheer atmosphere of the first, it's vibes and OST make it a must have for me, as a WipEout fan. Same with Virtua Cop and Panzer Dragoon. If you're only after the core gameplay, then yeah, I'll concede you go for the most polished and refined iteration of a franchise. That's not why I collect for the Saturn though, games I love have my ideal mix of visuals, gameplay mechanics, music and nostalgia - I couldn't skip or slight a good iteration of a franchise just because the sequel did what sequels are supposed to and build on what came before. See I understand that. But for me a kick ass soundtrack isn't enough for me to want to hold on to a game. If I love the soundtrack so much then I'll stick it on my ipod as I have with games like Wachenroder and Enemy Zero. If it doesn't have any gameplay advantages over its sequel then its pointless imo. I buy games for the sheer sake of gameplay and nothing else. Like yourself I have over 100 Saturn games. I get round to playing ALL of them every 3/4 months or so. None of my games sit there collecting dust, years on years out. Inferior versions in a franchise are the easiest games to ignore and the ones that will most likely to pick up dust. Like myself, I know you have a large collection of SAT games. If you're still finding time for those earlier versions then that great. But for me I could never justify loading up the likes of VC, PD or VF knowing I have better alternatives in each franchise. When my taste buds got round to yearning a Panzer Dragoon experience. Id look at PD & PD2 and pick up PD2 everytime. Same with the VC & VF series, I'd load up VF2, VC2. There came a point where I didnt play VC1 or PD1 for up to 5 years so they just sat there collecting dust. And when that happens it's pointless and redundant so they had to be sold off. I have nothing against those earlier games but for me I'd rather play the best of the best from each franchise. Theres just too much Saturn goodness to warrant spending anytime on inferior versions. But like I said if you can still find the time for those games that great, personally I can't. Yeah, I do find that I can play those earlier versions. Sometimes, I feel like VF1. Other times, VF2. Virtua Cop 2 felt like a more polished expansion pack to me, so I still play both. Well did, when I had a CRT... Panzer Dragoon 1 still feels great to me, and the second, whilst a clear, marked improvement, is still just 'more levels' in my eyes. Same goes for Gungriffon - they're definitely both halves of the same whole. The only games I have collecting dust are the ones I literally cannot play because of the language barrier, but I got them all so cheap, and a lot of them are great music CD's I still play BAT ReMix over URA when I feel the need to go through that crazy Story Mode, something that URA lacks. Touge King: The Spirits is another example where the original, whilst not as gorgeous as the second game, feels so different to the sequel, that they are related in theme and name only - both play like completely different games. For me, it's all about the vibes, not about playing the absolute best of each franchise. If I love a game enough, I'll make time to play it - regardless of whether it's been done better in a sequel or not. But I understand where you are coming from too - I just can't say that that's the case with me
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brianseals
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Post by brianseals on Jul 26, 2015 12:49:22 GMT
sych: I wish I knew about Alpha 2 being on the Street Fighter Collection, before I bought it. Oh well, it's not redundant if you like the shiny case! All kidding aside, I just thought of a reason why buying "redundant" games aren't a sin for some, and that's "collector's value". For those of us that are collectors, having a full set of something (such as an original game as well as its sequels) is satisfying in itself. I do see your point of view though, and I'm not the type of collector that is going to let my games collect dust forever - I will play everything eventually, and for quite a while, but for other people those games are just shelf candy. Hate it or love it, that's just the way it is. akumajobelmont has a point though, and I think I come closer to his POV. This isn't an accurate comparison at all, but think of film. Would you never watch the original Terminator, ever again, just because there are "better" sequels that were made? Personally, that's not the case for me and nostalgia definitely plays a role. Regarding Alpha 3 though, I'd only recommend the Saturn version if you don't have a Dreamcast. It's also on that console, and it's currently sitting at less than half the price the Saturn version will cost you, on eBay right now. The only reason why I'd consider buying it, is because I'm a joystick fan, and though I'm getting hardware for my Saturn, I've got no plans to buy any more peripherals, for any of my other systems.
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akumajobelmont
Advanced Saturn Gamer
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Post by akumajobelmont on Jul 26, 2015 13:04:27 GMT
akumajobelmont has a point though, and I think I come closer to his POV. This isn't an accurate comparison at all, but think of film. Would you never watch the original Terminator, ever again, just because there are "better" sequels that were made? Personally, that's not the case for me and nostalgia definitely plays a role. Not an accurate comparison, but an appropriate one. Now that you have said it, I see the comparison, and I do tend to view series on consoles like I do box sets for movies/tv shows. Nostalgia plays a role, definitely, but by the same token, if I come across an older series of games these days that I haven't played, I will work through them in chronological order if it's feasible. I'll revisit those earlier games too, if their good - I have done so in the past, without the nostalgia goggles on. Did it when I first discovered emulation with the CastleVania series - I was just out of High School, and didn't grow up playing a single CastleVania game. I fell for them all after the fact, and continue to revisit just about all of them to this day. Wow, isn't all of this just a big ol' can of worms that we've cracked open?
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brianseals
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Post by brianseals on Jul 26, 2015 14:38:08 GMT
Sure is.
Speaking of which, you mentioned Battle Arena Toshinden URA and that's a game I own, since I was able to get it for cheap. That's another title that you could say is redundant, because of all the other more notable 3D fighters on the system. URA though, let's you dive into the background or foreground, and that's something Fighting Vipers, Virtua Fighter and Last Bronx do not do. In fact, the Toshinden series was the first to let you sidestep, in a 3D fighting game, IIRC. The franchise got mixed reviews, and I've seen a few negative ones, but it isn't that bad.
Mind you, I didn't say it was good, but it isn't half bad. I should probably take some time to dive in on it, and pull it apart from all of the other brawlers. I think the thing that separates it the most though, is that it's a 3D game with a lot of projectiles. Fireballs aren't a big deal, when you sidestep them, so I'm curious as to why they went in that direction. Does VF2 or Megamix let you sidestep? I don't remember what Virtua Fighter was the first to let you do that.
Anyway, back on topic, I wonder if Sky Target makes After Burner II redundant, or vice versa. As I understand it (from Carter's review), Target is sort of an unofficial sequel, and it's so close to ABII, I wonder if it's worth it for non-collectors to have both.
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sych
"Living for the fantasy" -NIGHTS INTO DREAMS- The Classic Saturn Gem!!!
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Post by sych on Jul 26, 2015 19:55:17 GMT
[/quote]Wow, isn't all of this just a big ol' can of worms that we've cracked open? [/quote] Lo! No can of worms. Just healthy debating, it's what keeps the forums alive so it's all good. sych: I wish I knew about Alpha 2 being on the Street Fighter Collection, before I bought it. Oh well, it's not redundant if you like the shiny case! All kidding aside, I just thought of a reason why buying "redundant" games aren't a sin for some, and that's "collector's value". For those of us that are collectors, having a full set of something (such as an original game as well as its sequels) is satisfying in itself. I do see your point of view though, and I'm not the type of collector that is going to let my games collect dust forever - I will play everything eventually, and for quite a while, but for other people those games are just shelf candy. Hate it or love it, that's just the way it is. akumajobelmont has a point though, and I think I come closer to his POV. This isn't an accurate comparison at all, but think of film. Would you never watch the original Terminator, ever again, just because there are "better" sequels that were made? Personally, that's not the case for me and nostalgia definitely plays a role. Regarding Alpha 3 though, I'd only recommend the Saturn version if you don't have a Dreamcast. It's also on that console, and it's currently sitting at less than half the price the Saturn version will cost you, on eBay right now. The only reason why I'd consider buying it, is because I'm a joystick fan, and though I'm getting hardware for my Saturn, I've got no plans to buy any more peripherals, for any of my other systems. Interesting film vs video game analysis but I dont share it. You buy video games mainly for the gameplay, not for the story. (Well I do anyway) The gameplay is usually the core of any video game whereas the story is the main core of any film so it's not really the same. Interesting you mentioned Terminater vs Terminater 2, I'm probably in the minority that prefers Terminater 1 over the sequel. I love the haunting feeling that was constantly present in T1. In T2, that feeling was lost. Regarding sidestepping in the VF series, I believe MegaMix was the first game to do that. You can't side step in VF2. Regarding SFZ3 on the Saturn vs the Dreamcast, I'd always recommend the Saturn version over the Dreamcast. The picture just doesn't look right on the Dreamcast. Plus my personal preference of the Saturn controller vs the Dreamcast controller meant that I could never get into the Dreamcast version and appreciate the game as it should have been appreciated. Yeah SFZ3 is pricey on the Saturn but when it comes to regrets, it's the £1 bin fodder games I bought like Hardcore 4x4 and Die Hard Trilogy that I regret more than paying out £80 plus for the likes of SFZ3, Radiant Silvergun and Battle Garegga.
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Post by tempest on Jul 29, 2015 7:44:40 GMT
After some thought on this matter, I honestly don't think the term "redundant" applies to many of the games listed here, especially in game series. Is the first game in a series redundant just because the sequel does the same concept better? I don't think so. PD2 might be a lot better than PD1, but both are still fun to play and offer unique experiences and stories.
The only games that I believe become redundant are those that change very little from each iteration. Sports titles are a prime example of this because each year a new one is released with an updated roster and little else. The same could be said for some fighting game series, which simply add to the character roster and add a few new moves or fighting system tweaks that make the older versions obsolete. Yet, some people will prefer the way an older game plays despite this. For example, I prefer Alpha 2 over Zero 3 simply because the game is much better balanced, despite Zero 3 having a better character roster.
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sych
"Living for the fantasy" -NIGHTS INTO DREAMS- The Classic Saturn Gem!!!
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Post by sych on Jul 29, 2015 9:10:50 GMT
After some thought on this matter, I honestly don't think the term "redundant" applies to many of the games listed here, especially in game series. Is the first game in a series redundant just because the sequel does the same concept better? I don't think so. PD2 might be a lot better than PD1, but both are still fun to play and offer unique experiences and stories. The only games that I believe become redundant are those that change very little from each iteration. Sports titles are a prime example of this because each year a new one is released with an updated roster and little else. The same could be said for some fighting game series Isnt this a contradiction? A sports and fighting games sequel would also do the same concept better. So why are they redundant but PD1 isnt? I don't get that.
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Post by tempest on Jul 29, 2015 10:39:43 GMT
For starters, the stories and the levels are different.
In sports games there is very little difference between new iterations and the old ones.
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Post by redtail on Jul 29, 2015 19:01:02 GMT
This thread probably would've been better off sticking to games that received better ports at some point or upgraded versions. Not sequels. Not games that are similar.
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brianseals
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Post by brianseals on Jul 29, 2015 20:48:30 GMT
redtail: I disagree. I think it's a more honest and open discussion, if we allow people to say that some sequels invalidate the previous games. Some people do feel that way and that's not wrong, of course, because it's subjective. Btw, I want to add Street Fighter The Movie to the "redundant" list, because... Well, why would you ever buy that game unless 1) You're a super-fan of the movie. Or 2) You're going for a full set.
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martiniii
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Post by martiniii on Jul 31, 2015 0:48:57 GMT
The first Saturn game that springs to mind when the word "redundancy" is mentioned is Shining Force III Scenario 2. Same story, graphics, gameplay mechanics, enemies, weapons, and spells as Shining Force III (Scenario 1). The only things different are the battle designs and some of the settings. Like DLC, except the price was the same as a full game.
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