Quake: finally!

[martiniii]

Finally gave this a go last night. Spent two hours on it and still can't beat the first level of episode 1. Depressingly, it has the same problem as SNES Doom: enemies at a distance are so pixelated that they're indistinguishable from the backgrounds, yet they have no problems spotting the player character and dealing the same amount of damage as if they were attacking from point blank range. The blinding flash from the shotgun is pretty ridiculous, too; often I miss important visual cues because of it. I hate it when your worst enemy in the game is the bad graphics. Not as much as I hate it when the enemies in the first level take six shots each to bring down, though. That degree of tedium really saps my enthusiasm for the game, especially since it stands to reason that the first level is going to be the least tedious one, especially when you're dealing with an experienced developer like id.

Wish I could think of something positive to offer, but I can't. The whole thing just feels like a watered-down mod of Doom. Heck, they even recycle the dog animations and barking sound from Wolfenstein 3D! I love W3D, but that's just depressing.

Anybody know what the "Auto Targeting" option does? The manual doesn't say a word about it. Actually, it doesn't say a word about a lot of the game's most important aspects, but that's the only one I wasn't able to figure out.

[xDerekRx]

I don't even know where to start with this. So many things to say such little time to say it. 

Martinii a few things that come to mind are that you are just now trying Quake. Its not as extreme as our previous Robotica example but it borrows from it. Alot of time these 3D polygon games played better around release than if you try them for the first time now.

So for someone like myself and all the others who have generally loved this conversion, it really helped to know the landscape during its release. Its not a game that you can appreciate the accomplishment in 2015 if playing for the first time. At least I dont believe. But even that Ive found alot of first timers and new Saturn collectors be amazed by it.

QUAKE for Saturn has quite a reputation on the internet. Youll get alot of non Saturn owners on Youtube and forums who talk about how much they love this release OVER the N64 version (only other console version). The reason being is that it has such a great gritty atmosphere that is somewhat unintentional with the textures blending better and that rough polygon edge. N64 version was simply too clean for the tone AND it lost the amazing Trent Reznor soundtrack.

Considering Quake is a very intense Polygon 3D FPS, the Saturn port is nothing short of a programming miracle. IMO it still to this day plays great. 20 frames per second in the busy areas to me is fantastic. When you get into tighter corridors the game flys which is amazing. The graphics in this version in respect to the hardware are Top 5 on the system to me. Its really one of the best technical achievements the Saturn has.

As for the game itself it comes down to alot of things. How much of a FPS person you, how involved or interested you were in the genre in the late 90s when we got more games like this.

QUAKE by itself is no Doom. Ive said it alot, as an old skool FPS freak, Doom is king and nearly untouchable. I know you mentioned you like Wolf3D which is fine, but to me that games was like the growing pains of the genre. Doom perfected and defined it. Which is why oddly I do not like Wolf3D but mostly every other FPS in the early to late 90s. 

But what was so awesome about Quake is that it pushed the FPS into the polygon world and that was UNSEEN before. You felt like you were playing a full 3D version of Doom. Experiencing Quake around the time of its release is without a doubt part of the experience and joy this game brings. Its even bigger for PC people because of its multiplayer and modding legacy.

Its also mostly known for multiplayer which is why the only drawback was the lack of Mplayer. But the single player Quake is a good, dark, gothic FPS with some good weapons. Not even really topping Duke or Powerslave in the singleplayer area depending on your preference 

LETS GET BACK to the actual playing of the game since that is where you are currently stuck.

I will say since you are not used to the game, having not played it previously, it will take some work. It is a game youll have to get used to how it runs, how it handles to enjoy it. Keep playing it. The levels get bigger, more detailed, more enemies, more exciting weapons. Its quite a large and long FPS experience. The first level is VERY small.

The fact that you had trouble with a very simple first level makes me certain of my advice that youll need to just get used to how it handles and plays. I know it seemed quite different to you but I think once you get the handle of it youll enjoy it. The graphics hit you as ugly but you have to try to consider how polygon intensive the game is and its on a Saturn. Its harder to think that way now but upon release it was kinda mindblowing.

The enemies are certainly harder than a Doom. Even common foes take some work. Even just a few levels in youll run into enemies that are a pain in the ass that take 8-9 shotgun shots. But youll also feel a sense of accomplishment with them. Better weapons are also on the way. I actually just popped Quake in myself the other day and ran through about 10 levels real quick. Loved it but im also used to all the little things.

Martinii Ive actually kept this mostly short as Im not sure how else to really get you into Quake playing it in 2015. All I can really say is try to get yourself into a rhythm with the controls. This has happened to me in quite a few games. Sonic R off the top of my head. Hard to get into because you get put off by controls and draw distance. Then once you get into a flow you see how great it is. Some games are like that for better or worse. Quake to me is one of those games that will catch you off guard if you're expecting something different especially after all these years. I feel even Burning Rangers has a bit of that going on for those like myself that play it now.

Also something that Sega didnt advertise on the packaging were the 4 brand new Lobotomy levels. A couple which are so amazing that modders converted it to PC. The first one they made call (Purgatorium or something I forget) has rain and weather effects. Its amazing. Oddly Sega put a big notice on the Duke 3D box about the 1 new level Lobotomy did which wasn't that exciting. One of the other exclusive levels they did for Quake is a wresting ring where you select which monsters you want to battle each other. Its amazing what they thought of.

[NeoGeoNinja]

Sept 25, 2015 3:23:57 GMT xDerekRx said:

I don't even know where to start with this. So many things to say such little time to say it. Maybe later

You're both fans of Lobotomy, so should erupt into an interesting discussion I hope! My days of "long posting" are somewhat behind me, so I'll leave it to you Derek!

It's going up to 5am here no win the UK (can't sleep) so will look forward to reading this one, later tomorrow morning, over several slices of Seeded Batch with Morello Cherry conserve and a nice cup of coffee....

[MIK]

Auto Targeting:

If it's set to on you do not have to aim up or down to kill an enemy, (just like playing Doom). It will also allow you to be a number of pixels off the target to get a hit.

With it off you have to aim in all directions and be on target to get a hit. The game does not auto save this setting and if you prefer to have auto targeting off it has to be set every time you switch it on.



Last Boss in Episode 1:

The last boss in episode 1 is easy even on nightmare mode, it's a sitting duck. Just keep moving without back tracking on you self so you don't get hit or take splash damage and try not to stand in any one place for too long.

[martiniii]

Sept 25, 2015 3:23:57 GMT xDerekRx said:

I don't even know where to start with this. So many things to say such little time to say it. 

Martinii a few things that come to mind are that you are just now trying Quake. Its not as extreme as our previous Robotica example but it borrows from it. Alot of time these 3D polygon games played better around release than if you try them for the first time now.

So for someone like myself and all the others who have generally loved this conversion, it really helped to know the landscape during its release. Its not a game that you can appreciate the accomplishment in 2015 if playing for the first time. At least I dont believe. But even that Ive found alot of first timers and new Saturn collectors be amazed by it.

QUAKE for Saturn has quite a reputation on the internet. Youll get alot of non Saturn owners on Youtube and forums who talk about how much they love this release OVER the N64 version (only other console version). The reason being is that it has such a great gritty atmosphere that is somewhat unintentional with the textures blending better and that rough polygon edge. N64 version was simply too clean for the tone AND it lost the amazing Trent Reznor soundtrack.

Considering Quake is a very intense Polygon 3D FPS, the Saturn port is nothing short of a programming miracle. IMO it still to this day plays great. 20 frames per second in the busy areas to me is fantastic. When you get into tighter corridors the game flys which is amazing. The graphics in this version in respect to the hardware are Top 5 on the system to me. Its really one of the best technical achievements the Saturn has.

As for the game itself it comes down to alot of things. How much of a FPS person you, how involved or interested you were in the genre in the late 90s when we got more games like this.

QUAKE by itself is no Doom. Ive said it alot, as an old skool FPS freak, Doom is king and nearly untouchable. I know you mentioned you like Wolf3D which is fine, but to me that games was like the growing pains of the genre. Doom perfected and defined it. Which is why oddly I do not like Wolf3D but mostly every other FPS in the early to late 90s. 

But what was so awesome about Quake is that it pushed the FPS into the polygon world and that was UNSEEN before. You felt like you were playing a full 3D version of Doom. Experiencing Quake around the time of its release is without a doubt part of the experience and joy this game brings. Its even bigger for PC people because of its multiplayer and modding legacy.

Its also mostly known for multiplayer which is why the only drawback was the lack of Mplayer. But the single player Quake is a good, dark, gothic FPS with some good weapons. Not even really topping Duke or Powerslave in the singleplayer area depending on your preference 

LETS GET BACK to the actual playing of the game since that is where you are currently stuck.

I will say since you are not used to the game, having not played it previously, it will take some work. It is a game youll have to get used to how it runs, how it handles to enjoy it. Keep playing it. The levels get bigger, more detailed, more enemies, more exciting weapons. Its quite a large and long FPS experience. The first level is VERY small.

The fact that you had trouble with a very simple first level makes me certain of my advice that youll need to just get used to how it handles and plays. I know it seemed quite different to you but I think once you get the handle of it youll enjoy it. The graphics hit you as ugly but you have to try to consider how polygon intensive the game is and its on a Saturn. Its harder to think that way now but upon release it was kinda mindblowing.

The enemies are certainly harder than a Doom. Even common foes take some work. Even just a few levels in youll run into enemies that are a pain in the ass that take 8-9 shotgun shots. But youll also feel a sense of accomplishment with them. Better weapons are also on the way. I actually just popped Quake in myself the other day and ran through about 10 levels real quick. Loved it but im also used to all the little things.

Martinii Ive actually kept this mostly short as Im not sure how else to really get you into Quake playing it in 2015. All I can really say is try to get yourself into a rhythm with the controls. This has happened to me in quite a few games. Sonic R off the top of my head. Hard to get into because you get put off by controls and draw distance. Then once you get into a flow you see how great it is. Some games are like that for better or worse. Quake to me is one of those games that will catch you off guard if you're expecting something different especially after all these years. I feel even Burning Rangers has a bit of that going on for those like myself that play it now.

Also something that Sega didnt advertise on the packaging were the 4 brand new Lobotomy levels. A couple which are so amazing that modders converted it to PC. The first one they made call (Purgatorium or something I forget) has rain and weather effects. Its amazing. Oddly Sega put a big notice on the Duke 3D box about the 1 new level Lobotomy did which wasn't that exciting. One of the other exclusive levels they did for Quake is a wresting ring where you select which monsters you want to battle each other. Its amazing what they thought of.

Another awesome post, Derek. Your thoughts are most illuminating, and hearing from you that I just need to get used to the game gave me some extra motivation for playing it again last night. Mind you, I'm sure I would have stuck with it in any case, but your comments made me feel better about doing it.

I must say, though, that I'm confident I wouldn't have liked the game any better if I had first played it back in December 1997. Back then, not only was I not enamored of polygonal graphics, I didn't even know what polygonal graphics were. Panzer Dragoon II and Virtua Fighter 2 were the coolest-looking things I'd ever seen; that was about the extent of my understanding of graphics. In addition, although the Saturn version is new to me, my brother often played the shareware version of Quake back in 1996-97. I wasn't tempted to even try it out.

Today, I still can't see how Quake offers any real advance over Doom. Even before playing the game, reading the back of the box, my thought was "Polygonal enemies in a first person shooter? That has to be one of the stupidest gaming ideas ever." Polygonal enemies look good in third person games because you get the chance to look all around them; in first person games, you hardly ever see any side of an enemy but its front. I just don't see the sense in using a graphical method which, at the absolute best of times, is going to look no better than a sprite, while putting more stress on the system's processors.

Quake's second supposed improvement over Doom is the 3D levels. Yes, Doom's levels are in 2D, but unless you're a programmer, who can tell the difference? It's another instance of making the Saturn jump through hoops when it could accomplish the same thing more easily through a different method. That's bad programming in my book. Let me illustrate what I mean with a positive example: Saturn Virtua Fighter 2. The Saturn can't push polygons as well as the Model 2 hardware. Instead of stuffing all the polygons of the arcade version into the Saturn version, AM2 used texture mapping to give the characters the same level of detail with fewer polygons. They arranged the polygons strategically; according to AM2, in some parts of their bodies the Saturn VF2 characters actually have fewer polygons than the Saturn VF1 characters, but it's not noticeable due to the texture mapping. This allowed them to put more polygons in areas where they'd create a better effect, like Lion's wiggling fingers. In sum: AM2 focused on getting the best graphical results while using techniques which placed the least possible strain on the hardware. Id did the reverse with Quake: They focused on using techniques which would place the most possible strain on the hardware, while disregarding how it would affect the game's appearance.

I'm one of the minority that likes Wolfenstein 3D better than Doom. I wouldn't enter into an argument that Wolfenstein 3D is the better game, but I enjoy it more. I may be somewhat biased due to having played only the superb 3DO version (one of only three games which I've awarded a 10/10 in a review), but I find Wolfenstein 3D's military setting and stealth motif more appealing than Doom. And as phenomenal a game as Doom is, its complexity works against it in ways. With so many wide open spaces to retreat to or dodge around in all three dimensions, it misses out on the fierce tension you get from Wolfenstein 3D. And even after dozens of hours playing the game, I still struggle to make sense of Doom's automap. On a final note, none of Doom's bosses save the Cyberdemon even approaches the sheer fearsomeness of the Wolfenstein 3D bosses.

On my second play session with Quake I finally made it past level 1. Still was essentially a slog, repeatedly playing until I got lucky enough to reach the end with a small amount of health remaining.

Finished level 2 as well, which only took three attempts. Very perplexing how easy it is compared to level 1. The new enemies are much easier to evade, the secret areas are more obvious, you're given a steady diet of health and ammunition refills, and you get a weapon (the double-barreled shotgun) which takes less than an hour to kill a single foe. It reminds me of episode 4 of Doom, in which level 1 is by far the hardest level in the episode. But that was a bonus episode of sorts; it baffles me why Id would start off a game with such a disproportionately difficult level. Maybe level 2 is just the odd one out. (Also odd: The first "quad damage" in the game is placed in an area where there are no enemies within walking distance. I can see the designers thinking this would be funny, but as one's first encounter with the power-up it gives the impression that they just don't want you to have any fun with the game.)

The double-barreled shotgun, in addition to making the game easier, makes it a lot more fun for me. I like being able to do real damage to my foes. The ogres are ingeniously designed foes, too. I'm having a lot of fun outmaneuvering them and bringing them down.

Sept 25, 2015 3:41:35 GMT NeoGeoNinja said:

You're both fans of Lobotomy, so should erupt into an interesting discussion I hope! My days of "long posting" are somewhat behind me, so I'll leave it to you Derek!

It's going up to 5am here no win the UK (can't sleep) so will look forward to reading this one, later tomorrow morning, over several slices of Seeded Batch with Morello Cherry conserve and a nice cup of coffee....

Indeed, no win the UK. USA beat them every time.

Fandom of Lobotomy doesn't come into the picture, as Quake was actually developed by Id save for the Saturn version's secret levels (and I'll be very surprised if I manage to find more than two of those unaided).

Sept 25, 2015 9:23:47 GMT MIK said:

Auto Targeting:

If it's set to on you do not have to aim up or down to kill an enemy, (just like playing Doom). It will also allow you to be a number of pixels off the target to get a hit.

With it off you have to aim in all directions and be on target to get a hit. The game does not auto save this setting and if you prefer to have auto targeting off it has to be set every time you switch it on.

Thanks! I'd wondered if that might be it. I think I'll stick with auto-targeting on; manual targeting in a game where you can't move your character and the camera at the same time sounds like a pain in the rear.

[buckoa51]

Quake's second supposed improvement over Doom is the 3D levels. Yes, Doom's levels are in 2D, but unless you're a programmer, who can tell the difference? It's another instance of making the Saturn jump through hoops when it could accomplish the same thing more easily through a different method. That's bad programming in my book.

Quake was a PC game, the PCs of the time had ample power to push enough polygons to make the game play well. To suggest ID should have used sprites because "you don't often look at the bad guys from the side" is just absurd. You're struggling probably because you're playing it on pad, on keyboard and mouse it's a lot easier. I think most people could tell it was a step up from Doom by the first level when you actually come to a working bridge.

Point is, Quake was never designed for the Saturn, Quake was never even designed to run at a resolution lower then 480p (or 640x480 VESA if you want to be anal) that Lobotomy managed such a workable conversion is commendable. If you don't even like the game, don't play an old port on a system that can barely manage to run it anyway.

[xDerekRx]

Sept 30, 2015 10:48:30 GMT buckoa51 said:

Quake's second supposed improvement over Doom is the 3D levels. Yes, Doom's levels are in 2D, but unless you're a programmer, who can tell the difference? It's another instance of making the Saturn jump through hoops when it could accomplish the same thing more easily through a different method. That's bad programming in my book.

Quake was a PC game, the PCs of the time had ample power to push enough polygons to make the game play well. To suggest ID should have used sprites because "you don't often look at the bad guys from the side" is just absurd. You're struggling probably because you're playing it on pad, on keyboard and mouse it's a lot easier. I think most people could tell it was a step up from Doom by the first level when you actually come to a working bridge.

Point is, Quake was never designed for the Saturn, Quake was never even designed to run at a resolution lower then 480p (or 640x480 VESA if you want to be anal) that Lobotomy managed such a workable conversion is commendable. If you don't even like the game, don't play an old port on a system that can barely manage to run it anyway.

Being a Saturn message board I think playing our version is worth trying even if you dont fancy the style to begin with. Its part of experiencing the Saturns history. Quake on the PC is better which is a redundant statement. We all know and knew this. Most of us on this board know why Quake Saturn is held so high. Because of how it was able to come to our system in 1997 when it seemed more or less impossible. I still find the Saturn version to this day very playable and I can breeze through it. Same with Duke 3D, although D3D is more smooth to the casual FPSer. Ill defend martinii a bit as his opinion is someone from an outside perspective. While I disagree with most of his opinion above, I know hes coming from a different angle even back in 1997. Most of us that were into these type of games int he late 90s drooled over polygons in FPS and couldnt wait until Quake, Quake 2, even Turok for N64.

But buck you are correct, Quake was intended for all things PC. It was shoehorned on the Saturn... and its one of the main reasons our version is celebrated in many ways. It had no business being on the system to begin with let alone a nice functioning version. Had Lobotomy somehow found a way to add local multiplayer, netlink or anything it would have been an achievement beyond words. Heck I still cant believe I played Duke 3D online with a Saturn. But as it stands Quake is still a very nice single player run through.

[Tripredacus]

Sept 30, 2015 11:48:01 GMT xDerekRx said:

Point is, Quake was never designed for the Saturn, Quake was never even designed to run at a resolution lower then 480p (or 640x480 VESA if you want to be anal)

This is incorrect. Make sure not to mix up the original Quake with its later incarnations like WinQuake, GLQuake, etc. See here for info:
www.gamers.org/dEngine/quake/info/techinfo.091

[xDerekRx]

I think you meant to quote buckoa51 on that one not me

[buckoa51]

Oh, seems you're correct, I had no clue it supported those modes even in its DOS incarnation. Well, it has been a while

[mick_aka]

Sept 30, 2015 2:34:03 GMT martiniii said:

Fandom of Lobotomy doesn't come into the picture, as Quake was actually developed by Id save for the Saturn version's secret levels (and I'll be very surprised if I manage to find more than two of those unaided).

That's criminally underselling Lobotomy, they re-built Quake virtually from the ground up using the SlaveDriver engine and had to re-create every single map from scratch to overcome the layout issues in the engine.

Literally the only ID assets Lobotomy used in Quake was the original graphical work and even some parts of that were re-created, they also introduced real-time lighting into the mix!

It was effectively an entirely new game made to look and play like Quake.

[martiniii]

I've now cleared "The Necropolis". The environments in this one do much more justice to the graphics engine than the first two levels, which were honestly a bit bleh in the graphical design department. Very traditional first person dungeon crawler look, which I like. The lighting looks much prettier on these walls, too. The layout is still quite linear, but that's a relief due to the game's lack of a map, and I like that they've opened things up vertically as well.

Difficulty is still no sweat... It took me about five attempts, but several of those deaths were just due to an unlucky hit with a grendade. Aside from enemies taking a lot more hits until you get the double-barreled shotgun, this game plays almost identical to Doom, so I'm having a lot less trouble with it than I probably would if I hadn't played through Doom. One difference I'm starting to encounter is that Quake requires the use of specific weapons a lot more than Doom. In Doom, you can easily handle any non-boss enemy with either the shotgun or chaingun, so aside from ammunition management and purely personal preference there's little reason to change weapons. In Quake, I've already learned that Zombies can only be killed with the grenade launcher, which is useless against certain foes (e.g. anything that flies). Not sure if I like this or not. Certainly it reflects a more sophisticated array of enemy strengths and vulnerabilities, but part of the fun of Doom is being able to use whichever weapon suits your fancy.

Speaking of the grenade launcher, I'm very pleased to have added it to my arsenal. Its awkwardness ironically makes it more fun to use than the more traditional shotgun and nailgun. Being able to use a grenade launcher myself also gives me an even greater appreciation for the dynamics of eluding enemy-fired grenades.

I gave "Grisly Grotto" a quick try before turning the Saturn off for the evening. Ugh. I've always loathed the biosuit/toxic waste mechanic in Doom, so its very frustrating that they've left it completely unchanged in Quake. I much prefer the way swimming is handled in Powerslave. What with the inability to save mid-level, I dare say this level is going to be an agonizing ordeal of trial-and-error. Oh well, I'll have to grin and bear it.

Sept 30, 2015 10:48:30 GMT buckoa51 said:

Quake was a PC game, the PCs of the time had ample power to push enough polygons to make the game play well. To suggest ID should have used sprites because "you don't often look at the bad guys from the side" is just absurd. You're struggling probably because you're playing it on pad, on keyboard and mouse it's a lot easier. I think most people could tell it was a step up from Doom by the first level when you actually come to a working bridge.

Point is, Quake was never designed for the Saturn, Quake was never even designed to run at a resolution lower then 480p (or 640x480 VESA if you want to be anal) that Lobotomy managed such a workable conversion is commendable. If you don't even like the game, don't play an old port on a system that can barely manage to run it anyway.

I don't see how you expect me to know whether or not I like the game without having played it. Reviews only do so much good, and all the reviews for Saturn Quake are positive anyway. I'm also bewildered as to why you're being so defensive about "an old port on a system that can barely manage to run it". But most puzzling of all is how you read all my commentary on the issues with the game's graphics and design, and how the only level I've had trouble on thus far is the first one, and still managed to come to the conclusion that I'm having difficulty because of the controls!

Your claim that Id shouldn't have used sprites might be more persuasive if you actually provided, you know, some justification. I'm finding the use of polygonal enemies even more ridiculous due to my discovery that the enemies in Saturn Quake are only animated from four different sides. I didn't even know it was possible for polygonal graphics to be limited in that way! And doesn't Saturn Doom have enemies animated from eight different sides? I think the enemy graphics in Quake have now passed the point of being frustrating and become downright amusing.

Sept 30, 2015 11:48:01 GMT xDerekRx said:

But buck you are correct, Quake was intended for all things PC. It was shoehorned on the Saturn... and its one of the main reasons our version is celebrated in many ways. It had no business being on the system to begin with let alone a nice functioning version.

See, this I just can't get behind. I can't see being impressed with a game just because it's functional. Every single game on the Saturn is functional. PC games that were shoehorned onto the Saturn are hardly a rarity either: Sim City 2000, Prisoner of Ice, Magic Carpet, and Discworld II, just for starters. All of them nice and functional.

Incidentally, I'm not experiencing the smoothness that you were talking about in my copy of Quake. The frame rate dips fairly often; there are points where I'd be surprised if it were significantly above 10 frames per second. Not low enough to be a problem for me, mind you, but the discrepancy between your account and my experience is curious. I'm also seeing lots of very distracting graphical glitches, such as enemies appearing on my side of a wall when they're actually standing behind it, lighting effects passing through walls, and rottweilers walking in midair. The crown jewel of glitches, though, was when I dived into the water in "Grisly Grotto" and experienced what can only be described as a high-speed slideshow of every room in the level. Positively trippy.

Sept 30, 2015 22:04:57 GMT mick_aka said:

Sept 30, 2015 2:34:03 GMT martiniii said:

Fandom of Lobotomy doesn't come into the picture, as Quake was actually developed by Id save for the Saturn version's secret levels (and I'll be very surprised if I manage to find more than two of those unaided).

That's criminally underselling Lobotomy, they re-built Quake virtually from the ground up using the SlaveDriver engine and had to re-create every single map from scratch to overcome the layout issues in the engine.

Literally the only ID assets Lobotomy used in Quake was the original graphical work and even some parts of that were re-created, they also introduced real-time lighting into the mix!

It was effectively an entirely new game made to look and play like Quake.

I know a lot of work went into porting Quake, but it's still Id's game, just as an English translation of Le Comte de Monte Cristo (The Count of Monte Cristo) is still considered Alexandre Dumas's book.

[jpk72]

Martinii I don't think they mean that they're saying "Look, a PC game on the Saturn" by it's impressive Quake's running on it, they mean "Looking, a whole bunch of polygon's with lighting are running on th Saturn!", which I haven't played 'em but can Sim City 2000, Magiic Carpet, et al say that? I get you may not like it, but it's like the same way people appreciate Burning Rangers as a tech showpiece more than a gameplay experience sometimes.

[buckoa51]

I don't see how you expect me to know whether or not I like the game without having played it.

Because you said in your previous post something along the lines of "oh I saw my brother play this on the PC and never even felt tempted to even try it".

But most puzzling of all is how you read all my commentary on the issues with the game's graphics and design, and how the only level I've had trouble on thus far is the first one, and still managed to come to the conclusion that I'm having difficulty because of the controls!

Ok then, you just suck at games Most people can clear the first level no sweat.

Your claim that Id shouldn't have used sprites might be more persuasive if you actually provided, you know, some justification.

If you will excuse my French, I don't need to justify that should be blindingly bleedin' obvious Anyone who's seen how sprites scale compared to polygons would understand why one is chosen over the other. If they'd put blocky, Doom-stle enemies in Saturn Quake it would have been a laughing stock. I mean come on fella it's not just ID that made this switch, EVERYONE did, am I to believe you're more of a programming/game design genius than John Carmack with your sprite based enemies theory here?

Being a Saturn message board I think playing our version is worth trying even if you dont fancy the style to begin with. Its part of experiencing the Saturns history.

Also yes I think that's exactly why people should try this port. It's a great example of the machines 3D power when programmed by skilled teams, but if you never liked the game concept in the first place, you're hardly going to be won over by the Saturn port.

[xDerekRx]

martinii, we arent saying Quake on Saturn is well received just because somehow it exists on the Saturn. Its because it legitimately runs well enough and plays great from start to finish. It just so happens to have a nice reputation as somewhat of a technical feat for Lobotomy on top of it.

You say the frame rate drops which is does but having 20+ fps in busy areas was and still is perfectly fine. In fact most magazines and fans were amazed that it at worst did 20 fps in the crowded sections. In tighter corners it was quite amazing how fast the game ran. Again I think there is something to be said for playing the game in 2015 for the first time. After playing so many 3D games and other games over the years, your mind won't immediately appreciate how well this game plays. I

Like I said earlier. I turned on Quake a little while ago and ran through most of the game in pretty quick order. Loved it all the same. I also just ran through 80% of Duke Nukem 3D Saturn today and forgot how smooth that played.

I cant convince you that my perception of the frame rate, the game itself, and the controls being great are right. Just is what it is.

But yeah Quake and Duke were amazing to play on Saturn in 1997 when I didnt have a PC and somehow even when I play them today Im impressed and able to run through them despite these versions being outdated. Im impressed by both of these titles on Saturn even to this day. Its just one of those things Martinii that if you dont see it you dont see it. It seems you also arent a huge fan of  Doom and Quake as games to begin with which doesnt help.  While people like myself hold Doom very high (Doom 1 is tied for my favorite game of all time with a handful of others).And your comments about not being enamored by polygons in an FPS. So those things combined tell me you arent going to enjoy Quake Saturn that much. Not much else to say. You cant force it. Glad you gave it a try though.