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Post by tempest on May 31, 2017 12:21:36 GMT
House of the Dead is an awesome game with a fantastic, but super cheesy, storyline and tone. I love the mass of multiple routes, being able the shoot plenty of holes in zombies before they go down, and the cheesy soundtrack. But the shoddy lightgun sensitivity, mid-level loading, and abysmal port really let it down. Had the port been finished, it would easily have been at the top of this list.
Virtua Cop is an fantstic game, with some fantastic shooting action, great music, and is nigh-on arcade perfect. The training mode is a nice addition too. It's dated compared to its sequel though. And, like someone else mentioned, a bit too vanilla to win this.
The interactivity and multiple routes of Virtua Cop 2 win this contest for me. Being able to shoot absolutely everything was so much fun, especially in multiplayer. Friends and I would try to outdo each other's shiteness and earn the ranking of Gangster before each other by shooting all the helpless victims and scenery. Shooting the drumkit on level 2 and having it respond sonically was awesome. Beneath these superficial elements is a solid shooting experience. The music pales next to the first game, and the port isn't as close, but who cares when it's this much fun. The Saturn exclusive path is a great bonus too.
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Post by tempest on Jun 3, 2017 6:56:27 GMT
I found it hard to understand why House of the Dead is a close second to Virtua Cop 2 in this poll, so I popped it in today and am even more confused. I get that the concept is much cooler than being a cop, being able to shoot off limbs adds to the fun, and the various routes add to the exploration. But the Saturn port is so bad it's almost unplayable with a lightgun. Even after adjusting the gun sights, whether you can make a shot or not is up to chance. And the hit detection is terrible. I played through a section of the first level where I was shooting the zombies but the game was registering that I was hitting the boxes BEHIND the zombies even through there was no way I could actually have hit them until I had killed the zombies. This makes saving civilians nigh-on impossible and forget about collecting the coins and whatnot scattered around the level - you are more likely to shoot off screen than to hit something so small.
To see that I wasn't just a poor shot, I loaded up Area 51 and was amazed at how smooth the game ran and that I made most shots with the lightgun. Although this game has its issues, its far superior to the god awful Saturn port of House of the Dead. That SEGA released HotD despite being on 60% finished shows how little they respected their customers at the time. I could probably forgive HotD's shoddy graphics and mid-level loading if the gun sighting was accurate but this is just abysmal.
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Post by davyk on Jun 3, 2017 9:41:01 GMT
You forgot Mighty Hits!!
Joking. Actually it was an interesting game but it hasn't aged well.
It's between VC1 and 2 for me. There is more to VC2 and I reckon as an overall package it is better - but I've played more of VC1 so I'll go for that. I also prefer the black suit enemies for some reason.
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sych
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Post by sych on Jun 3, 2017 14:36:15 GMT
I found it hard to understand why House of the Dead is a close second to Virtua Cop 2 in this poll, so I popped it in today and am even more confused. I get that the concept is much cooler than being a cop, being able to shoot off limbs adds to the fun, and the various routes add to the exploration. But the Saturn port is so bad it's almost unplayable with a lightgun. Even after adjusting the gun sights, whether you can make a shot or not is up to chance. And the hit detection is terrible. I played through a section of the first level where I was shooting the zombies but the game was registering that I was hitting the boxes BEHIND the zombies even through there was no way I could actually have hit them until I had killed the zombies. This makes saving civilians nigh-on impossible and forget about collecting the coins and whatnot scattered around the level - you are more likely to shoot off screen than to hit something so small. To see that I wasn't just a poor shot, I loaded up Area 51 and was amazed at how smooth the game ran and that I made most shots with the lightgun. I think this is more to do with individual CRT's because Carter said the same thing you said in his review but about Virtua Cop 2, saying how the hit detection was bad. Personally I never had a problem with the hit detection on either games once I set up the gun collaboration it worked perfectly on my CRT. I do know not all CRT's are pure though. Buy onto the games themselves for me there are many, many reasons to back House of Dead over the Virtua Cop's. The Virtua Cop series are far too easy. Every enemy with the exception of bosses could be killed with one gun shot, doesn't matter where you shoot them, so long as they're hit once they dissapear. You could try for a 3 point shot but ultimately they're dead after the one. Because of this certain area's of the gameplay doesn't work as well as it should. For example there's a section on level 2 where you have the option to pick up a Machine gun or a different weapon by shooting at the barrells. The only advantage to these guns are the amount of rounds are increased before you have to reload. But if you're already reloading after one or two shots as the game more than generously gives you the breathing space to do so and all enemies (bar bosses) take one shot to kill so higher damage can't be a factor, What's the point of it all? This gave the gameplay a certain bland feeling and at times made me uninterested to play through the rest of the game after the second level. Due to how easily the enemies can be dispatched, it gives you time to become too familiar with the level layout. Making the experience predictable and uneventfull. For example I know where each enemy pops up from in the first two levels and at times I'm sitting there on target waiting for them to fall into the trap. That doesn't quite transfer in HOTD although the gameplay is similar the pace is more frantic. And that's the problem with the Virtua Cop series. There's no sense of choas or urgency as all enemies with the exception of bosses moves and respond in exactly the same way. The civilians are also extremley stupid in the VC series, often popping up from under a desk telling you not to shoot when they could've just stayed hidden. Even with the civilians that are being held hostage by the robbers. If you ignore them they just dissapear off the screen eventually making you at times not bothering to risk a shot as there's no real consequence to the civilian if you don't get involved. It's a broken mechanic. Where the area of civillians are concerned House of the Dead is a massive, massive improvement. If you don't get to the civilians in time they will die right in front of your very eyes as the Zombies have no problems killing them whatsoever. This creates an element of frantic and more intense gameplay. If you do save them, some reward you for your efforts by giving you a life up. An incentive missing from the Virtua Cop series. Not all the zombies move in the same way making the element of aim and shoot alot more difficult . Whether you're trying to shoot slithering slugs, or zombie dogs that run in diagonals or zombies that literally jump at you it's can become a very hectic ordeal putting the gamer under much needed pressure. This is probably the main thing missing from the VC series. The element of being under pressure. Also with House of the Dead the multiple routes are staggering. In Virtua Cop 2 you get 2 per level. And the difference is with Virtua Cop 2, your in game progress has no bearings on whether you get to access the multiple routes as they're on the rails. With House of the Dead actually accessing the multiple routes depends on you. As the multiple routes that happen 2 to 3 times per level often involve you having to shoot a lever or stop a certain civillian from dying. Meaning the priviledge of actually accessing a different route is dependent on your skill set, making the experience so much more challenging and that's the difference. In Virtua Cop it's given to you on a plate, with House of the Dead you have to earn it. Finally the best part of House of the Dead is the Saturn version where you're able to select the characters based on their stats adding another interesting dynamic to the gameplay. Something also missing from VC series. So for me House of the Dead is the clear winner. Graphically it was a terrible port but graphics to one side and looking at the gameplay mechanics, House of the Dead offers way more than the Virtua Cop series. I couldn't list a single thing Virtua Cop 1 or 2 does better than House of the dead in the gameplay factor. The Virtua Cops are still great games but I prefer House of the Dead. It does what games should ultimately do which is get your heart racing. The enemies are smarter, the stakes are higher and the pacing is better. It's a bigger challenge. Plus the voice acting hilariously works well with the atmosphere HOTD creates. But each to their own of course.
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Post by tempest on Jun 4, 2017 5:58:10 GMT
I think this is more to do with individual CRT's because Carter said the same thing you said in his review but about Virtua Cop 2, saying how the hit detection was bad. Personally I never had a problem with the hit detection on either games once I set up the gun collaboration it worked perfectly on my CRT. I do know not all CRT's are pure though. This would only be true if the lightgun accuracy was shit across multiple games. Of the four lightgun games I played, the only one that has poor accuracy is HotD. That tells me it's a problem with the game itself, not the CRT. Alot of reviews at the time of release had similar complaints. Given what I understand on how lightgun games operate in relation to the TV and lightgun sensor (there's a topic on it around here somewhere) the game's slowdown when multiple enemies are on screen at once could cause the inaccuracy of the sensor because the onscreen scan (or whatever it's called) reacts slower when the game slows down, resulting in inaccurate hit detection when the player pulls the trigger on the lightgun. As for your opinion about the games themselves, I competely agree with you. From a gameplay perspective, HotD shits all over the VC games but that's because they were made in different eras with different audience expectations. HotD never would have gotten past the sensors in 1994, but by 1996 gamer expectations had changed. And HotD built on what had made the VC games great and made it much more engaging. If we were putting the coin-ops of VC, VC2, and HotD against each other, HotD would win every time. But we're not - we're talking about the Saturn ports and Saturn HotD has several technical issues, primarily the poor lightgun accuracy and hit detection, that severely mar the gameplay experience, meaning it's not even of the same calibre as the Saturn VC games. A lightgun game is about the need for accuracy. If the game can't even provide an environment where that is possible, then it's a broken game.
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Post by xDerekRx on Jun 4, 2017 7:44:11 GMT
Been in Cuba for the last week so haven't been around. Lots of polls to catch up on!
This is a good one, big light gun fan back in the day.
Id argue Area 51 should be considered in the best Light Gun games here if there were 4 choices.
VC1 and VC2 are very good conversions. In fact I really like the way the first one plays even to this day. SImple but good looking polygons. Second game is tighter and more detailed but something about VC1 always gets me in the mood more.
But House of the Dead.... despite being only 60% finished somehow STILL plays just fine IMO. Its consistent enough and despite the way it looks, its all there. Game is just so awesome and full mystery, horror, and cool zombies. Its a rough greasy cheeseburger of a game but I enjoy it and play it the most of the 3.
Had HOTD been a proper release it wouldn't even be close to me but I give props to Tantalus for doing what they did at 60% and still at least delivering the game in a playable form. I hear what you are a saying Tempest, we aren't arguing the coin op versions, but even a 60% HOTD that is intact and at least playable IMO still just edges out solid VC1/2 conversions.
Also Tempest, as far as aiming goes, I have never found it to be a great issue. I feel like Ive gotten very good at the game and don't feel the aiming is broken. That would be something I would certainly notice. Perhaps a difference between the PAL and NTSC version or a combination of regional TV formats and versions? No idea.
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sych
"Living for the fantasy" -NIGHTS INTO DREAMS- The Classic Saturn Gem!!!
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Post by sych on Jun 4, 2017 10:18:56 GMT
I think this is more to do with individual CRT's because Carter said the same thing you said in his review but about Virtua Cop 2, saying how the hit detection was bad. Personally I never had a problem with the hit detection on either games once I set up the gun collaboration it worked perfectly on my CRT. I do know not all CRT's are pure though. This would only be true if the lightgun accuracy was shit across multiple games. Of the four lightgun games I played, the only one that has poor accuracy is HotD. That tells me it's a problem with the game itself, not the CRT. Alot of reviews at the time of release had similar complaints. Given what I understand on how lightgun games operate in relation to the TV and lightgun sensor (there's a topic on it around here somewhere) the game's slowdown when multiple enemies are on screen at once could cause the inaccuracy of the sensor because the onscreen scan (or whatever it's called) reacts slower when the game slows down, resulting in inaccurate hit detection when the player pulls the trigger on the lightgun. As for your opinion about the games themselves, I competely agree with you. From a gameplay perspective, HotD shits all over the VC games but that's because they were made in different eras with different audience expectations. HotD never would have gotten past the sensors in 1994, but by 1996 gamer expectations had changed. And HotD built on what had made the VC games great and made it much more engaging. If we were putting the coin-ops of VC, VC2, and HotD against each other, HotD would win every time. But we're not - we're talking about the Saturn ports and Saturn HotD has several technical issues, primarily the poor lightgun accuracy and hit detection, that severely mar the gameplay experience, meaning it's not even of the same calibre as the Saturn VC games. A lightgun game is about the need for accuracy. If the game can't even provide an environment where that is possible, then it's a broken game. This is the thing though. Hearing you describe it is like reading about 2 different games because I never experienced those issues. Hit detection & accuracy was not an issue in HOTD. You're the first person that has brought this to my attention. Even if you scroll back and read the SSM review of House of the Dead they don't mention this either. They only thing they knock the game for is its frame rate and graphics but concur that the gameplay elements remain strongly intact. If the accuracy and hit detection was so poor they would have also picked up on it. Like I said this has only been mentioned in the past about VC2 but I've never had an issues with that game either. I don't have a lightgun anymore so I can't check it now but this is something that I definitely would have picked up on if it was an issue. Slowdown is again not something I've witnessed in House of the Dead. Are you playing this in 50hz or 60hz? I'll have to play through tonight and look out for it. When exactly does this slowdown happen i.e. level 1 or 2 etc.? I've never played the Virtua Cop series or House of the Dead in the Arcades so my opinions are purely based on the Saturn versions themselves and for all the reasons mentioned House of The Dead is still the better game despite its frame rate and slightly unpolished look the gameplay is still better than VC series but that's just my opinion.
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sych
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Post by sych on Jun 4, 2017 12:33:18 GMT
Been in Cuba for the last week so haven't been around. Lots of polls to catch up on! This is a good one, big light gun fan back in the day. Id argue Area 51 should be considered in the best Light Gun games here if there were 4 choices. You've raised an interesting point. I almost added Area 51 but thought having 1 Vote and 4 choices was a bit mean. Maybe if I do a 4 way I'll increase the vote count to 2.
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Post by tempest on Jun 5, 2017 3:04:20 GMT
Here's one review that corroborates my experience: clubsega.blogspot.com.au/2008/10/house-of-dead-saturn-review.htmlHyper magazine, Australia's best independent videogames mag, published a review at the time of release stating the same thing about the poor light gun sensitivity. The editor and reviewer, Dan Toose, was an avid SEGA fan and only panned Saturn games if they deserved it. I can't find the review online, sorry. I was playing in 60Hz instead of 50Hz. When I get an opportunity to play HotD again, I'll try it at 50Hz and report back if it makes a difference. I don't recall SEGA optimising HotD. Can anyone tell me otherwise? One area where slowdown is rampant, is in chapter 1 when you come out of the sewers in that room with the giant cog. Another is the room where you have to open the cell to save the civilians from the zombies inside. In chapter 2, when you have the option to raise the bridge in the lab, shots don't register, forcing the player to take the default route, making the option of multilple routes, here at least, negligable. Area 51 is actually quite a good lightgun game. Sure, the cage in your face borders to hide the FMV edges looks dodgy and so do some of the sprites, but its highly playable and enjoyable. Sych, perhaps you could do a poll with it and other "lesser" lightgun games like Maximum Force, Mighty Hits, Crypt Killer, and tbe like.
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sych
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Post by sych on Jun 5, 2017 4:04:31 GMT
Area 51 is actually quite a good lightgun game. Sure, the cage in your face borders to hide the FMV edges looks dodgy and so do some of the sprites, but its highly playable and enjoyable. Sych, perhaps you could do a poll with it and other "lesser" lightgun games like Maximum Force, Mighty Hits, Crypt Killer, and tbe like. That's a good idea actually, will put those ones you mentioned up later this evening when I get back from work. Let me know if you have any other requests. Also remember the polling duels isn't something that just beloings to me. Anyone has the freedom to create one, so if you ever feel the need to create one, feel free to. I've enjoyed our debates.
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Post by xDerekRx on Jun 5, 2017 8:10:20 GMT
Here's one review that corroborates my experience: clubsega.blogspot.com.au/2008/10/house-of-dead-saturn-review.htmlHyper magazine, Australia's best independent videogames mag, published a review at the time of release stating the same thing about the poor light gun sensitivity. The editor and reviewer, Dan Toose, was an avid SEGA fan and only panned Saturn games if they deserved it. I can't find the review online, sorry. I was playing in 60Hz instead of 50Hz. When I get an opportunity to play HotD again, I'll try it at 50Hz and report back if it makes a difference. I don't recall SEGA optimising HotD. Can anyone tell me otherwise? One area where slowdown is rampant, is in chapter 1 when you come out of the sewers in that room with the giant cog. Another is the room where you have to open the cell to save the civilians from the zombies inside. In chapter 2, when you have the option to raise the bridge in the lab, shots don't register, forcing the player to take the default route, making the option of multilple routes, here at least, negligable. Area 51 is actually quite a good lightgun game. Sure, the cage in your face borders to hide the FMV edges looks dodgy and so do some of the sprites, but its highly playable and enjoyable. Sych, perhaps you could do a poll with it and other "lesser" lightgun games like Maximum Force, Mighty Hits, Crypt Killer, and tbe like. Im actually somewhat intrigued to try the PAL version but its really not logical to obtain. Maybe it would be easier for you to try the really cheap JPN NTSC version someday. I still don't find many of these problems to be prevalent to me. Ill have to pop it in again and try to pay attention to see if they stand out. Im glad you used parentheses around the word lesser when referring to Area 51 I suppose Revolution X and maybe SCUD could be included in that too. Although Area 51 is already getting my vote. Ive always liked light gun games. Not sure how I would rank them overall. Area 51 was my first personal Saturn purchase as I was addicted to it at the arcade. HOTD and Area 51 are probably my 2 favorites followed by VC1/VC2 but I like them all in different ways. Im not sure if Elemental Gearbolt came out in Europe/PAL but Ive been in the middle of playing that lately. Easily the most interesting light gun game you'll ever play to say the least.
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sych
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Post by sych on Jun 5, 2017 17:59:37 GMT
Here's one review that corroborates my experience: clubsega.blogspot.com.au/2008/10/house-of-dead-saturn-review.htmlHyper magazine, Australia's best independent videogames mag, published a review at the time of release stating the same thing about the poor light gun sensitivity. The editor and reviewer, Dan Toose, was an avid SEGA fan and only panned Saturn games if they deserved it. I can't find the review online, sorry. I was playing in 60Hz instead of 50Hz. When I get an opportunity to play HotD again, I'll try it at 50Hz and report back if it makes a difference. I don't recall SEGA optimising HotD. Can anyone tell me otherwise? One area where slowdown is rampant, is in chapter 1 when you come out of the sewers in that room with the giant cog. Another is the room where you have to open the cell to save the civilians from the zombies inside. In chapter 2, when you have the option to raise the bridge in the lab, shots don't register, forcing the player to take the default route, making the option of multilple routes, here at least, negligable. Area 51 is actually quite a good lightgun game. Sure, the cage in your face borders to hide the FMV edges looks dodgy and so do some of the sprites, but its highly playable and enjoyable. Sych, perhaps you could do a poll with it and other "lesser" lightgun games like Maximum Force, Mighty Hits, Crypt Killer, and tbe like. Im actually somewhat intrigued to try the PAL version but its really not logical to obtain. Maybe it would be easier for you to try the really cheap JPN NTSC version someday. I still don't find many of these problems to be prevalent to me. Ill have to pop it in again and try to pay attention to see if they stand out. Im glad you used parentheses around the word lesser when referring to Area 51 I suppose Revolution X and maybe SCUD could be included in that too. Although Area 51 is already getting my vote. Ive always liked light gun games. Not sure how I would rank them overall. Area 51 was my first personal Saturn purchase as I was addicted to it at the arcade. HOTD and Area 51 are probably my 2 favorites followed by VC1/VC2 but I like them all in different ways. Im not sure if Elemental Gearbolt came out in Europe/PAL but Ive been in the middle of playing that lately. Easily the most interesting light gun game you'll ever play to say the least. I've also read that review. His PAL experience definitley isn't the same as mine. I've just run through HOTD twice now and didn't experience any slowdown in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or final level. I was especially looking out for the sections Tempest mentioned but there was none whatsoever. I also played a bit of Virtua Cop 2 staright after to see if I could be swayed but I stand by my decision firmly. That Club Sega review was also written in 2008, so he played it 10 years after 'House of the Dead' was released on the Saturn. In that time we've had 6th Gen and 7th Gen of consoles. Of course his outlook is going to be completed different as his experience of the game is 10 years behind. Consoles has moved on in that time. These two statements really made me laugh: " The graphics are bad. Really bad. This is one of the worst looking games on the Saturn. Polygons have been removed, as expected in a Model 2 conversion, but the level of detail that has been dumbed down is just nasty. The textures used in this game are just awful, pixelated messes that at most times bear very little resemblance to their arcade counterparts. Everything blurs together in a muddy mess of brown and gray, making it hard to spot enemies"He obviously hasn't played that many games on the Saturn to say that HOTD is one of the worst looking Saturn games, that's just nonsense. And then the second comment saying it was hard to spot enemies is just ridiculous. Really? Come on now, unless you're purposely not looking at your TV screen how can you find it hard to spot the enemies in HOTD? Seriously think about that statement. That's just absurd. He also said that the Japanese version has Red blood and PAL version has Green blood which isn't true. Both versions default at Green Blood but there is a cheat to unlock different colours of blood. To state the JPN version has Reb blood, begs the question whether he actually played the game at all or was just going off distant memory that somewhere got blurred. Either way it was lazy writing. Not much in that review rang true which is why I didn't bother to comment on it but reading it again annoyed me. I'll put the other poles up yourself and Tempest requested plus a few different ones.
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Post by xDerekRx on Jun 5, 2017 20:02:00 GMT
Now to be honest, even reviews in 1997 crushed HOTD graphics and fairly so as it was indeed rushed out, but I find the "Alpha" version of HOTD we got decent and unintentionally gritty looking.
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sych
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Post by sych on Jun 5, 2017 20:07:51 GMT
Now to be honest, even reviews in 1997 crushed HOTD graphics and fairly so as it was indeed rushed out, but I find the "Alpha" version of HOTD we got decent and unintentionally gritty looking. They did indeed and with good reason. The graphics are not as good as other 3D games on the Saturn but to say they were one of the worst when there was so many other Saturn games with worse graphics was a little ridiculous.
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mattius
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Post by mattius on Jun 5, 2017 20:08:34 GMT
Virtua Cop 2.
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