Lack of good platformers really hurt the... platform

[segafan2000]

Yeah never liked the N64’s resolution blurryness, despite being very impressed with the texture filtering back in 1997.

Outside of Final Fantasy 7 and 10 I’ve just never gotten into turn based RPGs, so I’m going to have to say that for me Ocarina of Time is vastly better than Panzer Saga.

I’d love an Ocarina remake with updated graphics and controls, maybe Switch 2 will be the place it happens. As for Panzer Saga, I did like the vibe, but that free first disc bored me to tears, give me Zwei over it any day.

[Team Andromeda]

When it comes RPGs for me nothing beat Lunar, but when it comes to Saturn/PS/N64 RPGs I found Grandia to the be the best, it had the best story and for me was the RPG that really captured the spirit of Adv

I'll never forgive the muppets at SEGA America for not translating it and worst still picking a silly fight with Working Designs which killed any chance of Grandia and Lunar remake on Saturn for the west.  

[davyk]

There were certain parts of Zelda - like the market - that were almost on rails. That's obvious. But the open areas and dungeons where real go anywhere environments. Their size enabled by cartridge, processor speed and hardware acceleration. And ease of control facilitated by the admittedly odd looking controller.

Frankly, if you can't tell the difference between that and what was on PS1/Saturn then this conversation is going nowhere. And if you are reduced to pointing out a particular part of the game like the market to try and prove your point then you are being deliberately obtuse on the matter. Every environment has its boundaries for goodness sake. And to try and talk about framerates etc when that was endemic through that generation is also nonsensical. 

It's as plain as the nose on ones' face that those 2 N64 games were unique at the time and set the template for others to follow.

Later releases on PS1 in particular may have enhanced the illusion but they were still not at the same level as 3D environmental sophistication as the N64's launch game.

The N64 has its weaknesses just like any other console of the time. I own and still use all 3 and enjoyed all three libraries. I don't want to come across as knocking any other game but I feel I have to point out that those two games were the unique experiences of that generation , had enormous influence on the industry, and most likely the reason the N64 was designed the way it was.. I'd throw Waverace into that mix as well. Another launch game which made the most of the N64's strengths to deliver genuine water effects. It's also the reason why Wetrix was only N64 and PC that generation.

Like most 3D games of that gen there were compromises and we all had to look past them and as long as they were enjoyable and didn't compromise the play experience it didn't really matter. The PS1/Saturn games were designed to compensate for their limitations too by building the 3D environments the way they did and those games were enjoyable too.

This is going nowhere so this will be my last comment on the subject.   On this occasion anyhow.   

[Team Andromeda]

I'm simply saying that Saga was a complete 3D RPG and that must have been a mammoth task not just for the hardware, but also the team, given it was 4 Disc game and it was hard to think of any RPG that was 4 CDs and all in 3D at the time of Saga. It was the Shenmue of its era but Shenmue was also a game where freedom was limited and carefully had to be masked.

I just think you underplay the little the of Soul Reaver on the PS1 and Tomb Raider 1/2 they were truly epic in scale. I did find Banjo & Kazzoie 2 to be a game that really gave you a sense of freedom unmashed on the other consoles but that did come out in 2000 when teams were really getting to grips with 3D games and giving more freedom Conkers also gave a vast sense of freedom too .

Also with respect, Wave Race 64 wasn't a launch game really and while it's water effects were amazing and if anything never bettered. They did come at a huge cost, the game ran in low res, was in a windowed display (even on NTSC) and run at 20 fps most of the time.

I was lucky enough to have the 3 consoles too at the time (well my brother had the PS) I was just more often than not disappointed in the N64 graphics and sound after all the hype, screen res frame rate wise it was a letdown and if anything a step backwards from the Saturn and PS1 and I just couldn't shake off that impression, sorry. Not helped with how amazing Mario 64 was and that was a game ready for the system launch.


I think NCL going with Carts was a silly move that hurt the system, more so has developers really looked to take advantage of the space on CDs

[segafan2000]

Aug 23, 2024 10:38:49 GMT Team Andromeda said:

When it comes RPGs for me nothing beat Lunar, but when it comes to Saturn/PS/N64 RPGs I found Grandia to the be the best, it had the best story and for me was the RPG that really captured the spirit of Adv

I'll never forgive the muppets at SEGA America for not translating it and worst still picking a silly fight with Working Designs which killed any chance of Grandia and Lunar remake on Saturn for the west.  

Tell me about it!

Grandia is my fiancés favourite game of all time, she’s still got artwork she drew from when she was a kid that she loves to show off to me, she even wrote fan fiction for it.

Growing up her and her brother shared a PlayStation, N64 and a Dreamcast (which she particularly loved dearly, especially games like Grandia II, Skies of Arcadia and Sonic Adventure). Early into our relationship I showed her the Saturn (she’d heard of it but never played one). I showed her loads of the PAL games in my collection and demonstrated most of them over a couple of weeks, but apart from Shining Force III, Sonic Jam and the Daytona intro song she just said there wasn’t much on there that she liked.

She was absolutely gobsmacked when I told her how Grandia started life as a Saturn title and Bernie Stolar blocked the game from coming to the west partially resulting in the Saturn port.

Still annoys me how Stolar gets credited for Dreamcast’s success in the west, I’m sure it had nothing to do with the slew of Japanese titles (that had been trickling out for nearly a year) being available almost immediately come the western launch

[segafan2000]

Just reading the back and forth between Team Andromeda and davyk, really makes me think that despite Saturn’s faults, the biggest problem they had was PlayStation and N64 just churning out bangers.

N64 may not have had much third party support, but I struggle to think of a console with better first party output (Mario 64, Ocarina, Perfect Dark, GoldenEye, Banjo, Majora’s, Star Fox 64 and F-Zero X are all time classics in my opinion).

PlayStation’s library is just the stuff of legend, a golden age for the likes of Capcom, Konami, Square and Namco, it was hard to keep up back then.

Then there’s the PC with great RTS and FPS games and graphics that were light years ahead of consoles by 1998.

Unlike today where there’s no need to own every format (I only have PS5 and Switch) you really were missing out if you didn’t have every format going, along infinite money and spare time.

The late 90s were a great time for gaming and innovation.

[Team Andromeda]

Loved Grandia because it just captured the sense and spirt of adventure. I hated the fact that I had to play the English version on my brothers PS, well it was modded and so I just bought a copy, but still wasn't happy. 


I loved Tomb Raier 1 and 2 and felt some of the levels were vast and bigger than some of those in Mario 64. I just felt they were narrower in TR while Mario 64 on the seemed more open on all sides, if that makes any sense 

I will never forgive Bernie for the way he handled the Saturn. To his credits he got SEGA Sports back on track in the USA, got some effective PR going and he and his team did a wonderful job with the Dreamcast launch right down to lovely jewel cases on the games and also looking to use more Japanese artwork for the covers. It was SEGA Japan turned to mess up the launch and the less said about the muppets at SEGA Europe and that French prick the better 


 

[davyk]

One thing I will say about 3D platformers is that I don't think their absence hurt the Saturn. It had far too many other problems.

Platformers were kind of played out. I'm sure even something like Mario64 as good as it was wouldn't have made that much of a difference.

Sony had brought gaming to the mainstream and people who used to play Nintendo and Sega when they were younger were attracted to what the Playstation had. That type of player wasn't keen on 3D platformers against something like Metal Gear Solid for example.  At the time I was a bit of a Sony hater but that was just being silly. The PS1 did nothing for me back then and the control pad (with no analogue sticks remember) and a bloody awful excuse for a dpad was truly awful.  Some of its flagship games like Wipeout had the marketing but that first game was awful with a normal pad and its collision handling was dreadful too.

But - Sony made some good changes to the market and attracted more players to gaming. Of course it created the mainstream gamer who only play something like FIFA, EA Golf or the latest mission based FPS but so what? Just because that doesn't interest me doesn't mean there's room for it.

[segafan2000]

Aug 27, 2024 10:31:01 GMT davyk said:

Sony had brought gaming to the mainstream and people who used to play Nintendo and Sega when they were younger were attracted to what the Playstation had. That type of player wasn't keen on 3D platformers against something like Metal Gear Solid for example. 

3D platformers were huge on PS1, just look at their lifetime best selling game chart…

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PlayStation_video_games

6. Harry Potter & the Philosopher’s Stone
7. Crash Bandicoot 2
8. Crash Bandicoot 3
11. Crash Bandicoot
18. Spyro
26. Spyro 2
28. Spyro 3

[davyk]

Surprised at that.

I knew there were plenty of them but didn't think they'd have sold as well as that.

Calling Bandicoot games 3D is pushing it though - aren't they just into-the-screen corridor games?  Not that it matters really when it comes to sales.

Super Magnetic Neo on Dreamcast was like that - very linear - very bloody tough too with that magnetic polarity gimmick.

The Spyro games were closer to proper 3D in those wider gem hunt areas.

[segafan2000]

Aug 27, 2024 16:17:34 GMT davyk said:

Calling Bandicoot games 3D is pushing it though - aren't they just into-the-screen corridor games? 

Crash can move along the X, Y and Z (jump) axis and, unlike Bug!, he can also move diagonally so that ticks all the boxes for a 3D game.

Saying that, Sonic 3D also ticks those boxes, but I think being sprite-based rather than polygon-based might just disqualify it.

Camera movement isn’t really required for a game to be classed as 3D remember, after all the classic Tomb Raider games don’t allow you to control the camera. A lot of games we consider to be 3D have no camera control. But yes, I’d say Spyro and Ape Escape are far closer to the modern style of 3D platformer.

[davyk]

You cannot be serious about Bandicoot being a proper 3D game.

Games like that are faking 3D. They are no more 3D than Clockwork Knight is. You are moving in one direction to get to the end of the level.

I'm tapping out of this madness.

[buckoa51]

You're moving down a narrow corridor usually but you have full 3D movement within that corridor so I'd say personally that qualifies as "proper" 3D. To me "Fake" 3D platformers would be games like Pandemonium.

[mick_aka]

I must admit in a world where everyone was soiling themselves over "3D" at the time, side scrolling platformers, even those using polygonal graphics, felt very old hat.
Certainly not the correct opinion, but I found it to be the prevailing one at the time, especially with teens and early 20-somethings who were relentlessly chomping at the bit for the next big thing.

There was a good bit of marketing hype pre-launch drummed up for Clockwork Knight, but very little effort to push the sequel (at least here) which is a shame, I still find both really enjoyable.

[Team Andromeda]

To me Crash is 3D platform game, but we sometimes get the same debate over Virtual Fighter and how people say it's not a 3D fighter because it plays on a 2D plane and whatnot.

I really wished SEGA made more with Bug and Bug Too. One had such a good game there and a team with a lot of talent If only both games were made easier and allowed the player to save at check points too. The Japanese version of Bug is so much more enjoyable because it's easier, IMO it could have been a really nice series

Also while I liked Clockwork Knight it was clearly rushed out in Japan and SEGA America/Europe were complete tossers for not holding it back and releasing Clockwork Knight 1/2 as one game, which I think someone at SEGA Europe said would happen only to go back on their word, much like how SEGA Europe promised Pal Resident Evil on the Saturn would been totally uncut