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Post by Anthaemia. on Dec 7, 2009 23:11:33 GMT
There's a possibility it could be an early Dreamcast version as Genki stated their port took six months, which means they started work on their treatment in early '98. However, it would have been pointless to release prototype footage of the arcade original this late - I can definitely see instances where quadrilateral polygons appear to have been used, and considering the low detail backgrounds I'm fairly sure we're looking at the later Saturn revision... but I could still be wrong, which is why I'm uploading further images and the video o you can help me to pass judgement!
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Post by TrekkiesUnite118 on Dec 8, 2009 4:46:04 GMT
Will the pictures and stuff you post later be bigger than that last one? Or is that the resolution of the video?
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Post by darkheart13 on Dec 8, 2009 7:17:48 GMT
I can't be 100% sure if this is actual Saturn footage, but considering my source for the video - let's just say for now that it's someone from within Sega's own ranks - then I'd be surprised if it's not at least somehow connected with the console version in some way. A large portion of the clip in my possession is rapidly edited, so you can't really tell just how consistent the frame rate is. However, upon close inspection there doesn't seem to be any drop below 30fps and the resolution is definitely 320x224. As with the Shenmue prototype it seems there may be some post-processing, and compression surely helps disguise a lot of the rougher visual aspects. Also, you can tell it's not just the arcade machine because there are minor differences in the backgrounds you'd expect from a scaled-down console treatment. For example, there's a permanent train to one side of the subway level that helps lower the workload on the Saturn's processors, while the island stage loses its undulating terrain and much of the impressive water effects. Furthermore, it seems the characters are of a slightly higher quality than what AM2 had achieved with Digital Dance Mix (even though I previously mentioned their lack of individual fingers in an earlier message), with much of their detail a combination of great texture mapping, real time lighting and the return of Gouraud shading, which I guess could only return as a result of the resolution being lowered in comparison with Fighters Megamix. Finally, it should be noted this clip doesn't show every character and stage, but I've been assured the build playtested in secrecy behind closed doors at various events in late '98 was complete, so this could either be an unreleased promotional video or capture made for posterity by AM2 - similar to how the reel from Shenmue Saturn Version was produced before the source code became locked away for good in Sega of Japan's vault (or so the most common rumour would have us believe). Hopefully this will prove enough for now, as I'd really love to point out every last detail I've noticed about this short sequence, which I should just quickly mention seems to have been taken from some kind of rolling demo as there's no sight of the usual counters you'd expect from in-game footage... and the close-up camera is clearly designed to emphasise the characters' visuals over the backgrounds, not any particular gameplay elements! Again, I'm sorry for making you all wait, but can you perhaps just hold out another day or so until I have my outstanding work-related problems sorted? Sounds very advanced for the Sega Saturn. It could be the dreamcast...
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Post by Anthaemia. on Dec 9, 2009 18:47:16 GMT
I was planning to put together a quick comparison of the Model 3, Saturn and Dreamcast versions of Virtua Fighter 3 with screenshots to accompany my writing, but it's clear this is probably better suited to an article on the main page as opposed to being a long-winded rant here. Besides, that way I can open a thread here later and continue discussing the subject without hijacking the board, which I predict is soon going to be alive with conversations about the recent leak of Sonic Xtreme source data...
P.S. Due to unforseen circumstances, I might not be able to deliver my final VF3 comparison feature until maybe next week at the earliest. I prefer to separate personal life with online activities, but needless to say a combination of stress at work and a turn for the worse in weather has seen the return of a condition I hoped was now in the past. Sadly, that was not to be and now I'm on the kind of medication that means I probably won't feel like spending too much time being on the 'net (hence my absence for most of yesterday) - I'll certainly keep on contributing and working towards the long-awaited VF3 exclusive, though you'll need to appreciate I may take longer than originally anticipated now.
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Post by darkheart13 on Dec 9, 2009 20:38:28 GMT
Take your time. And of course always prioritize social life over internet life.
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Post by Kibbles on Dec 10, 2009 13:20:40 GMT
I was planning to put together a quick comparison of the Model 3, Saturn and Dreamcast versions of Virtua Fighter 3 with screenshots to accompany my writing, but it's clear this is probably better suited to an article on the main page as opposed to being a long-winded rant here. Besides, that way I can open a thread here later and continue discussing the subject without hijacking the board, which I predict is soon going to be alive with conversations about the recent leak of Sonic Xtreme source data... P.S. Due to unforseen circumstances, I might not be able to deliver my final VF3 comparison feature until maybe next week at the earliest. I prefer to separate personal life with online activities, but needless to say a combination of stress at work and a turn for the worse in weather has seen the return of a condition I hoped was now in the past. Sadly, that was not to be and now I'm on the kind of medication that means I probably won't feel like spending too much time being on the 'net (hence my absence for most of yesterday) - I'll certainly keep on contributing and working towards the long-awaited VF3 exclusive, though you'll need to appreciate I may take longer than originally anticipated now. How about capturing some of the video footage for the SSUK youtube channel? I'm sure mick would pay you/lick your balls for the privelidge
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mick_aka
Kickin' it lively!
"Mick is moderately adequate."
Joined: April 2007
Posts: 9,834
Location:
XBL: mickloaf
PSN: mickloaf
Nintendo ID: segamick
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Post by mick_aka on Dec 10, 2009 15:39:37 GMT
Either.
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Post by Kibbles on Dec 10, 2009 17:38:58 GMT
I'd say the possiblity that this is a Dreamcast version is probably not very likley based on that, the Dreamcast game uses slighty reduced versions of the Arcade character models and environments, it would make no logical sense to reduce them more than you needed to, yet build them back up for the final release.
Due to lack of counters and such, perhaps this is actually a tech demo created by AM2 to see if the Saturn could mimmick the look of Vf3 to any acceptable degree? Even the shenmue prototype had visible counters and such in the 'In-game' screens.
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Post by TrekkiesUnite118 on Dec 10, 2009 20:11:47 GMT
I'd say the possiblity that this is a Dreamcast version is probably not very likley based on that, the Dreamcast game uses slighty reduced versions of the Arcade character models and environments, it would make no logical sense to reduce them more than you needed to, yet build them back up for the final release. Due to lack of counters and such, perhaps this is actually a tech demo created by AM2 to see if the Saturn could mimmick the look of Vf3 to any acceptable degree? Even the shenmue prototype had visible counters and such in the 'In-game' screens. Or it could be a rolling demo, kinda like what we have with other Arcade ports like Virtua Fighter 2.
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Post by Anthaemia. on Dec 11, 2009 0:32:44 GMT
I'm still not feeling 100%, thanks in part to the medication I've been put back on meaning I can only keep my eyes open for a short amount of time in any given day. Still, I noticed a suggestion that I put up some video footage so bear with me and I'll create a short clip including various different iterations of Virtua Fighter 3. Upon closer inspection, there is absolutely no way this video is from a rolling demo unless someone cut together the results in post production as it jumps seamlessly between three fully-detailed stages and six characters - even with the 4Mb RAM cart enabled this would have been far outside the Saturn's capabilities!
Also, I didn't notice this until earlier but you can even see that between shots the level of detail switches. While the backgrounds always look visibly scaled-down in contrast with their arcade sources, one eyewitness report mentioned a clever system where the character models alternated between high-polygon versions for winning sequences and lower, processor-friendly variations during the actual fights. Despite previously highlighting the lack of separate digits, you can also spot individual fingers at some points. Clearly this isn't real-time footage, and as time goes on I feel it was probably either a very elaborate tech demo or maybe a real time, non-playable segment that would have appeared after the normal introduction video.
Finally, the most conclusive evidence this isn't just early Dreamcast footage (in my opinion, at least!) comes from putting together screenshots captured from this clip along with the other versions released commercially, including Genki's console treatment of VF3tb. For the sake of completion, I've even thrown in a few pictures of the early - and quite rough looking - Dreamcast preview build that was seen at the New Challenge 2 conference and then later TGS '98. Apart from being far darker overall, the biggest difference is the appearance of strong aliasing, which is naturally a problem the Saturn had no solution for. If that wasn't enough to convince any sceptics, there's also going to be visual reference to three different builds of the arcade original during various stages of its development. The clip I have doesn't match up with any other version out there, but again it's possible this still may not be taken from either revision of the mythical Saturn conversion. Is this enough for now, or do you simply cry for more? Hopefully it shouldn't be too long...
P.S. Did I mention the fact you can see four-sided polygons quite frequently along with no sign of stretched textures in the joints of certain fighters such as Kage, plus a lack of high-end effects associated with the Model 3 board like distance fogging or transparency being used when scenery obscures the action? If this turns out to be anything but a Saturn build I would be very, VERY surprised - and I wouldn't dare make that kind of bet too often!
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Post by grolt on Dec 11, 2009 19:19:59 GMT
Anthaemia drops down for another awesome thread read. Thanks for all this, very fascinating stuff, although that screenshot has to be pre-rendered. Even the Shenmue demo looked a lot blockier and "Saturn-y" than VF3 appears to here. Is there proof that AM2 was working on VF3 for Saturn? What's the history there? I know Genki put out the final (shit) product for VF3tb, but could have AM2 tried their hand at an early DC tech demo based on what they knew from the Saturn, hence this video? Looking forward to seeing more.
As for VFR, it's a pretty stellar visual upgrade and yeah, something that really would have sold the system instead of the deterrent the original VF probably became. For the record, I too prefer the original VF to Remix, even if I acknowledge that Remix is in every way more impressive. The shaded polygons just have a certain appeal to them in the first game that none of the others replicate. By comparison, Remix just looks like VF2 without the extra characters. VF and VF2 both have separate personalities, but VFR just seems like VF in VF2 skin.
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Post by Anthaemia. on Dec 11, 2009 23:51:26 GMT
I can assure you the screenshot is from a real time video sequence, and you can see character models of a similar quality in Digital Dance Mix, which AM2 only created in the first place as a tech demo for the Saturn conversion of Virtua Fighter 3. Yu Suzuki's team was so busy with Saturn VF3, the Shenmue prototype and another top-secret project - known as Chicago - they were unable to work on any Dreamcast games until Shenmue moved platform, hence Genki's taking responsibility for VF3tb. Anyway, there is considerable evidence to support the existence of two separate complete revisions of Saturn VF3. In the vaults of Sega's Japanese headquarters there is a disc labelled "03/07/98" that has been confirmed as being the finished domestic version of VF3 for Saturn, but sadly this was rejected for release by management who had already decided that a 32-bit edition of this game (with considerable graphical downgrading) would harm sales of any potential Dreamcast port, and I'm sure they already knew Genki was on this job since production took six months - based on this and the game's eventual release we can guess development started in early 1998.
Next, after months of significant reworking, AM2 sumbitted a massively-improved second revision of Saturn VF3 for approval. This time, realising how impressive the conversion had become with a little extra work, management actually gave the thumbs up and a master tape was sent for reproduction at a Japanese pressing plant with plans for a near-immediate release. Strangely, the end product was to be region coded for standalone play on both Japanese and European consoles, suggesting Deep Fear may not have always been intended as the last Saturn game to be issued in PAL territories. However, at the very last minute (on 17/09/1998 to be precise!), none other than Yu Suzuki was informed by internal memo that his team's hard work was no longer being considered for release. Also, the master was ordered to be withdrawn and placed into immediate storage, with no further work allowed on a conversion that had now been officially cancelled. From this point on, AM2's sole concern would be getting Shenmue up and running properly as a Dreamcast project, as it had already been announced the game would be heading to Sega's 128-bit system despite no significant work being carried out yet... apart from the pre-rendered sequences featured in the Project Berkeley sampler, of course! Does this help prove the existence of Saturn VF3?
In a slightly unrelated point, did you also know that Genki was originally called to produce OutRun 2 while AM2 finished the development of Shenmue II? Yu Suzuki was so disappointed with their early work that he delayed its release until he could further supervise, though an early location test did show a Genki-designed version of the Testarossa model that had yet to be replaced. Ironically, the only reason Suzuki was so busy with Shenmue II is because actual producer Keiji Okayasu (who also led the Saturn conversions of Daytona USA, VF2 and VF3) had left AM2 just before the game's completion in the hope management would be more considerate to Yu-san. In one final twist of irony, Suzuki himself then left for several reasons, the most well-known being that he felt management was losing faith in his direction. As a result, VF4 introduced a new director taking over the series and had less revolutionary features than its predecessor, plus we also got the Shenmue II cliffhanger ending instead of a proper concluding installment as was the original plan.
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Post by Anthaemia. on Dec 12, 2009 1:24:32 GMT
Well, I've gone through my entire multimedia archive and the only stage I can find that appears in every different version of VF3 is the subway level, so the video comparison I put together focuses on this area. Now, I must apologise in advance for their not being any known footage of the Dreamcast preview build that was shown at the New Challenge II conference and Tokyo Game Show in 1998, but hopefully screenshots will do for now... let's face it - who's really going to read my rants? (Even I'm not foolish enough to accept you're only here for one reason!) After promising so much and making you all wait patiently enough, I finally present: tinypic.com/player.php?v=2pyykx5&s=6
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Post by TrekkiesUnite118 on Dec 12, 2009 5:50:11 GMT
It seems to be prerendered to me, but there is a lot of compression issues in this that I can't really tell. Perhaps you can upload the video you have somewhere for us to download and view?
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mick_aka
Kickin' it lively!
"Mick is moderately adequate."
Joined: April 2007
Posts: 9,834
Location:
XBL: mickloaf
PSN: mickloaf
Nintendo ID: segamick
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Post by mick_aka on Dec 12, 2009 8:10:14 GMT
That's pre-rendered, the models, animation and camera angles are a dead giveaway.
It does look very old school Saturn, possibly an opening cut scene?
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