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Post by bultje112 on Jun 12, 2016 8:50:31 GMT
I'm not using "good vs evil" and "right vs wrong" interchangeably. I didn't say there was no right vs wrong, I said it was open to interpretation. There is no traditional good vs evil in this story, this isn't Zelda or countless other games where a seemingly peaceful utopia is suddenly threatened by a demon set on ruining everyone's day. I think this is partly why PDS is such a unique experience. Was it right for Craymen to nuke the capital and slaughter the excavation team? As he later tells Edge, "this is war". Would it really have been a terrible thing if the Empire had taken over Zoah? A town that was waging class oppression through religious dogma (just eavesdrop on the many conversations in town). It's conceivable the empire would have done away with the Holy District ensuring more even commerce. Was it really "wrong" of the Empire to destroy Zoah? It could be argued it was an appropriate response. Edge helped Vaiman by firing the first shots in the conflict. You as the player completely obliterate a military installation presumably filled with men proudly serving their nation with families at home. Even the Seekers aren't the completely noble organization they claim to be, they later imprison Orta for the crime of her birth. No one has a 100% moral high ground in this game. That's why the Caravan is so brilliant in it's inclusion. You can see the effects the events have on a group of people who otherwise have no agenda other than to eke out a living and survive. very well said
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martiniii
Joined: January 2010
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Post by martiniii on Jun 12, 2016 12:25:32 GMT
I'm not using "good vs evil" and "right vs wrong" interchangeably. I didn't say there was no right vs wrong, I said it was open to interpretation. There is no traditional good vs evil in this story, this isn't Zelda or countless other games where a seemingly peaceful utopia is suddenly threatened by a demon set on ruining everyone's day. I think this is partly why PDS is such a unique experience. Was it right for Craymen to nuke the capital and slaughter the excavation team? As he later tells Edge, "this is war". Would it really have been a terrible thing if the Empire had taken over Zoah? A town that was waging class oppression through religious dogma (just eavesdrop on the many conversations in town). It's conceivable the empire would have done away with the Holy District ensuring more even commerce. Was it really "wrong" of the Empire to destroy Zoah? It could be argued it was an appropriate response. Edge helped Vaiman by firing the first shots in the conflict. You as the player completely obliterate a military installation presumably filled with men proudly serving their nation with families at home. Even the Seekers aren't the completely noble organization they claim to be, they later imprison Orta for the crime of her birth. No one has a 100% moral high ground in this game. That's why the Caravan is so brilliant in it's inclusion. You can see the effects the events have on a group of people who otherwise have no agenda other than to eke out a living and survive. I'm with you all the way on your general point, but saying that the empire destroying Zoah is morally ambiguous is just absurd. If Barack Obama were to have a nuclear bomb dropped on San Diego just because some of the people there object to the way he's running the country, would you say "It could be argued it was an appropriate response"? The military base was destroyed by Edge and the dragon, not Zoah, and the empire destroys Zoah whether or not Edge accepts the title of Zoah's protector. The same goes for Craymen nuking the capital. The idea that any action is morally justifiable within the self-declared context of war (the situation Craymen refers to as "war" certainly does not fit the common definition of the term, and in the real world his actions would be considered terrorism) is one that you'll find very little support for. There's a reason why people can be prosecuted for something called "war crimes".
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Post by atolm on Jun 12, 2016 14:05:53 GMT
You're implying Zoah was a town of the Empire, it wasn't so your analogy doesn't work. This was a foreign occupation. How is it any less morally ambiguous than Craymen nuking the capital, and you later choose to assist him? Had Craymen survived, would he have stopped at the tower? The only reason Edge went to the military base was because of Vaiman, so it WAS destroyed by Zoah. It was an act of war. Zoah was given the option to surrender, Vaiman chose another option. Whether or not the Empire truly knew Edge was acting on the behalf of a town politician is never really revealed. But it is clear through enemy dialog in the game they blame Edge's appearance at the air base as an act by Zoah. They are correct. Afterall Vaiman was making public "premonitions" about the appearance of the Dragon to gain leadership. Pretty conceivable the empire got wind of him opening his mouth.
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Post by bultje112 on Jun 12, 2016 14:25:18 GMT
I'm not using "good vs evil" and "right vs wrong" interchangeably. I didn't say there was no right vs wrong, I said it was open to interpretation. There is no traditional good vs evil in this story, this isn't Zelda or countless other games where a seemingly peaceful utopia is suddenly threatened by a demon set on ruining everyone's day. I think this is partly why PDS is such a unique experience. Was it right for Craymen to nuke the capital and slaughter the excavation team? As he later tells Edge, "this is war". Would it really have been a terrible thing if the Empire had taken over Zoah? A town that was waging class oppression through religious dogma (just eavesdrop on the many conversations in town). It's conceivable the empire would have done away with the Holy District ensuring more even commerce. Was it really "wrong" of the Empire to destroy Zoah? It could be argued it was an appropriate response. Edge helped Vaiman by firing the first shots in the conflict. You as the player completely obliterate a military installation presumably filled with men proudly serving their nation with families at home. Even the Seekers aren't the completely noble organization they claim to be, they later imprison Orta for the crime of her birth. No one has a 100% moral high ground in this game. That's why the Caravan is so brilliant in it's inclusion. You can see the effects the events have on a group of people who otherwise have no agenda other than to eke out a living and survive. I'm with you all the way on your general point, but saying that the empire destroying Zoah is morally ambiguous is just absurd. If Barack Obama were to have a nuclear bomb dropped on San Diego just because some of the people there object to the way he's running the country, would you say "It could be argued it was an appropriate response"? The military base was destroyed by Edge and the dragon, not Zoah, and the empire destroys Zoah whether or not Edge accepts the title of Zoah's protector. The same goes for Craymen nuking the capital. The idea that any action is morally justifiable within the self-declared context of war (the situation Craymen refers to as "war" certainly does not fit the common definition of the term, and in the real world his actions would be considered terrorism) is one that you'll find very little support for. There's a reason why people can be prosecuted for something called "war crimes". that's what you and, after thousands of years, western civilization finds morally wrong in general. do you have any suggestion the panzer dragoon world is in any way like our world is now?
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martiniii
Joined: January 2010
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Post by martiniii on Jun 12, 2016 14:25:40 GMT
You're implying Zoah was a town of the Empire, it wasn't so your analogy doesn't work. This was a foreign occupation. How is it any less morally ambiguous than Craymen nuking the capital, and you later choose to assist him? Had Craymen survived, would he have stopped at the tower? The only reason Edge went to the military base was because of Vaiman, so it WAS destroyed by Zoah. It was an act of war. Zoah was given the option to surrender, Vaiman chose another option. Whether or not the Empire truly knew Edge was acting on the behalf of a town politician is never really revealed. But it is clear through enemy dialog in the game they blame Edge's appearance at the air base as an act by Zoah. They are correct. Wow. So you think Barack Obama nuking any city where people object to his governing would be perfectly acceptable, just so long as it isn't within the US? Sorry, Atolm, but I think you're alone in believing that rulers have the right to do whatever they want so long as it means silencing any dissenting opinion. Craymen nuking the capital isn't morally ambiguous either; your post overlapped with me editing my previous post for clarification. I initially assumed the essential equivalence of the two actions would be obvious to anyone, but had second thoughts shortly after. Guess I was right. Equating Vaiman with the entire town of Zoah doesn't work. You don't even need to use common sense to realize that; just look at the dialogue in the town of Zoah. Sentiments and choices differ from person to person. And even if Vaiman were the living embodiment of the entire town, declaring something "war" doesn't give you the license to commit any crime you want.
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martiniii
Joined: January 2010
Posts: 2,112
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Post by martiniii on Jun 12, 2016 14:27:39 GMT
that's what you and, after thousands of years, western civilization finds morally wrong in general. do you have any suggestion the panzer dragoon world is in any way like our world is now? Our understanding of morality has changed over time, but morality itself never changes. Just because modern laws of gravity weren't discovered until the past few centuries doesn't mean that gravity worked differently back in 500 A.D.
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Post by bultje112 on Jun 12, 2016 14:29:24 GMT
you might have A'd in philosophy, but you seem to lack any kind of historic framework in which to think. you also believe people in the medieval times were idiots for burning witches?
you put judgment on things without looking at the context. the panzer dragoon world is clearly about surviving, no from of enlightenment or renaissance to find there. how can you compare moral theme's, especially on political things, from that world with ours today?
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Post by bultje112 on Jun 12, 2016 14:30:34 GMT
that's what you and, after thousands of years, western civilization finds morally wrong in general. do you have any suggestion the panzer dragoon world is in any way like our world is now? Our understanding of morality has changed over time, but morality itself never changes. nobody can say what good or wrong morality is. it's not a fact. never is and never will be.
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martiniii
Joined: January 2010
Posts: 2,112
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Post by martiniii on Jun 12, 2016 14:34:32 GMT
you might have A'd in philosophy, but you seem to lack any kind of historic framework in which to think. you also believe people in the medieval times were idiots for burning witches? you put judgment on things without looking at the context. the panzer dragoon world is clearly about surviving, no from of enlightenment or renaissance to find there. how can you compare moral theme's, especially on political things, from that world with ours today? Look, if your conclusion is that no moral judgments can be cast on anything anyone does in Panzer Dragoon Saga because of the context of the milieu, then it doesn't make sense to say anything in the game is morally ambiguous. Without morality, there is no moral ambiguity.
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martiniii
Joined: January 2010
Posts: 2,112
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Post by martiniii on Jun 12, 2016 14:35:40 GMT
Our understanding of morality has changed over time, but morality itself never changes. nobody can say what good or wrong morality is. it's not a fact. never is and never will be. Okay, now you're getting just silly. You're talking about moral ambiguity when you don't even believe in morality, period?
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Post by atolm on Jun 12, 2016 15:50:00 GMT
that's what you and, after thousands of years, western civilization finds morally wrong in general. do you have any suggestion the panzer dragoon world is in any way like our world is now? Our understanding of morality has changed over time, but morality itself never changes. Just because modern laws of gravity weren't discovered until the past few centuries doesn't mean that gravity worked differently back in 500 A.D. uhh, what? "Morality" is a human construct, just like Music, so of course it changes with the times. It isn't a law of the universe. It solely exists in the minds of humans. Your comparison to gravity is ridiculous. The effects of gravity do not rely on the continuing existence of our species. When we meet our end, the concept of morality will cease to exist. Gravity and the expansion of the universe will continue on. The dragon posed a very real threat to the empire. If nuking Zoah meant the Dragon rider would cease slaughtering their forces, it doesn't seem like such a drastic decision
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Post by bultje112 on Jun 12, 2016 17:10:23 GMT
nobody can say what good or wrong morality is. it's not a fact. never is and never will be. Okay, now you're getting just silly. You're talking about moral ambiguity when you don't even believe in morality, period? morality isn't a law of nature. there is no morality in animals or plants. yet all forms of gravity apply to them. I believe in my own morale. and morale can't be framed into one truth or law of science, like gravity. I do believe in morality. I just don't judge on morality in situations I can't judge. let's say you think drugs are bad and should be banned. that's the morale of many I suppose. me I don't believe you can judge that until you've done all of that and know what it actually is. I can't empathize too much with a character like craymen because I've never been in his position. so I don't judge his morality
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Post by atolm on Jun 12, 2016 18:31:18 GMT
nobody can say what good or wrong morality is. it's not a fact. never is and never will be. Okay, now you're getting just silly. You're talking about moral ambiguity when you don't even believe in morality, period? Where did you "ace" philosophy? an online course at Devry? How do you not grasp what bultje112 is saying? I believe art and literature exist, that doesn't mean what constitutes "good" versions of them is concrete for all time. What is good art? That's an ambiguous question. Is it morally wrong to eat meat? That depends on who you ask, doesn't mean those who answer differently don't believe in morality. Morality to exist as a concept requires a constant go between about what is right vs wrong. That IS morality. Gravity has no such requirements, it's existence just is.
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Post by thewhitefalcon on Jun 12, 2016 19:09:14 GMT
Perhaps I need to get a copy of this, if this is the kind of discussion it inspires. It MUST be a heck of a game.
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Post by linkt101 on Jun 12, 2016 20:16:44 GMT
I'm not sure if PDS story line is unique as people are making out. After all, Golden Sun has much the same theme of good intentions/bad intentions. I wouldn't say Craymen was a bad guy. Certainly in relative terms, but "this is war" seems to be used as an excuse to justify his actions.
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