club
Saturn Player
Joined: January 2011
Posts: 115
Location:
|
Post by club on Apr 19, 2011 15:36:24 GMT
Since I got a VGA box for my DC I've been wanting to improve the picture quality of my video games (not just the Saturn) and was hoping people more knowledgeable than me would be able to help me make a decision on getting an XRGB3 or not. At present I run my Japanese Saturn and PS2 through an LCD PC Monitor using a composite cable a cheapo TVBox from Kworld (no SCART connection, see link) and some external speakers. It looks... not great. The picture is a bit blurry when scrolling, the colours aren't that crisp and sometimes the picture goes all liney (for example shadows on Strikers 1945 turn into a series of black stripes, as do some of the sprites on DoDonpachi). I run my Pal 360 through the same TV Box but using component. Looks lovely. Here's to said tv box here: www.kworld-global.com/main/prod_in.aspx?mnuid=1248&modid=6&prodid=26&flag=1I run my DC through the same monitor using the a DC VGA box. I also have a Neo Geo and a PC Engine (both Japanese). They're in storage at the moment but sure they just have composite cables. I've been looking over posts here and on YouTube (including superdeadite's) and getting an XRGB3 looks the way to go - it seems like a great one-stop solution providing everything I need to hook up all my machines (Japanese Saturn, PCE, NG, PS2, and Pal DC and 360). But I have a few questions... - Will PAL and NTSC machines both work through the XRGB3? - If I'm inputting using component cables, will there be a noticeable difference between what the XRGB does and my current TVBox does? - What would be the best cables to get for my systems? Thinking PS2 component, Saturn RGB SCART... Neo and PCE I have no idea. - Is there any noticeable display lag using an XRGB3 in a VGA monitor? - Is there a much cheaper solution I'm missing? An SLG3000 plus a £5 adaptor that lets me connect a SCART cable to the YPbPr on my TVBox perhaps? Any words of wisdom here would be appreciated. EDIT Will this Saturn cable do the trick for my RGB SCART lead? My Saturn is Japanese and this is for a Pal Saturn, will it work? www.amazon.co.uk/Sega-Saturn-Scart-Cable-Lead/dp/B000ODPUUIIt's for a Pal Saturn but s
|
|
|
Post by superdeadite on Apr 19, 2011 17:05:54 GMT
XRGB-3 is only worth it if you need it's Progressive Scan Input abilities. If you don't need the 480p input, you might as well just get a 2+, cause XRGB-3 in B1 (line double mode) IS a 2+ with more scan line options. 3's B0 mode is useless for gaming, too much lag.
Personally, the 1 or 2 combined with an SLG3000 is my favorite combination. To benefit from an XRGB though, you need to use RGB input. Composite is gonna look like shit no matter what you use. Saturn, Neo Geo, PS2 all output RGB, just need the cable. (PS2 will output in RGB via Component cables). PCE needs to be modded for RGB, but it's easy and totally worth the effort.
Being Japanese, the XRGBs take JP 21pin RGB. It's wired totally different from Euro SCART. You need proper Japanese cables, or a Euro SCART>JP 21 adapter.
|
|
club
Saturn Player
Joined: January 2011
Posts: 115
Location:
|
Post by club on Apr 19, 2011 19:55:04 GMT
Thanks for the advice. Had a look into it and I'm more confused than ever about whether I'd need something that supported progressive scan. I thought that the lack of progressive scan support would explain why at the moment I'm occasionally getting weird liney graphics when I'm connecting my Saturn to the LCD monitor using a component cable via the TVBox, and as I understand it LCD monitors do require progressive scan. On the other hand I've never had any similar problems with the 360 connected the same way using a component cable. Nor for that matter the DC via the VGA Box. So yeah, I'm confused. Realise this is kinda vague but any advice is appreciated.
Next step will be finding an XRGB2 or 3. The 3's are on Yahoo auctions Japan for about Y18,000, which seems reasonable. Cannot find a 2+ anywhere. Are they relatively easy to come by in Akihabara? I'll be out that way in the summer.
|
|
|
Post by yuji on Apr 19, 2011 20:21:37 GMT
I just parted with my XRGB3 for a CRT TV. XRGB3 is way to complicated and you need to fight with it for like 20minutes every time you switch consoles to get a decent picture. Not every consoles, but generally for me MegaDrive and Saturn had to be setup separately. Also the boarder line is very annoying for the MegaDrive (since most MD games have colored boarder lines unlike the black in the Saturn). For the Saturn, sometimes there will be boarder lines on the bottom and left, other times there would be boarder lines to the top and right. You can adjust it manually every time, but thats just not right. But this could be just with my LCD, maybe other LCD's are okay.
CRT TV works with out any trouble, plug and play, and picture quality is top notch for anything older than PS1, Saturn. Another bonus is the light gun.
I will admit that I'm still using my XRGB3 for the vertical shmups on the LCD since its easy to rotate. I also use the LCD for Dreamcast through a VGA adapter. The bad thing about XRGB3 is its super complexity, and the compatibility with various LCD's (at least it didn't like mine) Good thing is, if you take your time, the XRGB3 is capable of showing top class quality picture from just about any consoles with an RGB 21pin cable.
|
|
|
Post by superdeadite on Apr 19, 2011 22:27:18 GMT
By Progressive Scan I mean 480p input. The Saturn outputs in 240p (480i in a few games), so no Progressive Scan input support can't be used by a Saturn. Some PS2 games output in 480p, but not many.
|
|
club
Saturn Player
Joined: January 2011
Posts: 115
Location:
|
Post by club on Apr 20, 2011 9:57:36 GMT
@ superdeadite. Thanks for the advice here. Doesn't sound like I'll be needing 480p for now then. Question is, where on earth can one find a XRGB2+? And if I can't find one, are there any drawbacks (beside price) to buying an XRGB3 over an XRGB2+?
@ Yuji. Thanks for the warnings. A big CRT would make sense but as I play a lot of vertical shooters I'm sure it'd be broken before you know it. Besides I don't have the space. About getting a good picture from different machines - from your post it sounds as if you can't save the settings, is this right?
|
|
|
Post by yuji on Apr 20, 2011 10:10:38 GMT
Correct, you can have 1 setting saved, but there is no way to save multiple settings. Maybe there will be a solution in the near future by a firmware update from micomsoft, but I won't count on it. I also use the XRGB3 for vertical shmups, so I understand you
|
|
|
Post by superdeadite on Apr 20, 2011 11:55:46 GMT
The 3 doesn't really have any drawbacks compared to the 2+ besides being more confusing. The 3 has about 20 billion options. Some of which don't appear to do anything from what I've seen. It's easy spending an hour tweaking it. Some people love this, I don't. Also note some of the 3's cooler features (like screen-shot taking) is only available when using the Japanese firmware, which is not for the feint of heart. Personally I prefer turning dials and knobs over clicking "down" fifty times on a menu screen. Hence the XRGB-1 is my favorite.
|
|
|
Post by buckoa51 on Apr 20, 2011 13:37:53 GMT
The 3 has a slightly better picture than the 2+ The 2+ has slightly better compatibility however. The 3 now has full English firmware, making accessing the options a breeze.
I've used the 3 extensively and it is very quirky but produces excellent results for all but a handful of systems. really you should consider them as 240p up-scalers only, their deinterlacing is poor (though likely better than what you are currently using) and their lack of support for HD sources rules them out for use with 360/PS3 etc.
Oh for the Saturn you need a RGB cable that uses composite sync rather than composite video for sync, Adaptorman can supply them.
I still think the ultimate setup is the DVDO Edge plus XRGB3, but of course that's not cheap.
See my site for more info and let me know if you have any more questions!
|
|
|
Post by superdeadite on Apr 20, 2011 14:29:47 GMT
In the end, it depends on what you want to play. Consoles are generally fine. But if you have any interest in arcade pcbs, the 1 and 2 have much better compatibility. For example, 1 and 2 play my Xexex board perfectly, but the 2+ and 3 just gives me a black screen, regardless of settings.
|
|
|
Post by buckoa51 on Apr 20, 2011 14:47:24 GMT
That also depends on what display you are using too.
I should mention that Micomsoft have a new XRGB in the works that is supposed to be out in the next few months.
|
|
club
Saturn Player
Joined: January 2011
Posts: 115
Location:
|
Post by club on Apr 20, 2011 15:17:37 GMT
buckoa51, I had a read over your site. I now think that the 'liney' problems I was encountering on Saturn and PS2 games was due to bad deinterlacing. It isn't like this on the whole screen, just certain bits at certain times, and it's always the same. Here's a badly shot example from DoDonpachi DAI OU JOU on PS2. Note the liney 96. Will I get similar problems with the XRGB3 if I don't use a DVDO Edge or similar? Also the bit on your site about the XRGB not working on some modern displays is worrying. Am I likely to encounter any issues if I'm feeding it into a VGA monitor? superdeadite - I long for a decent supergun (head was spinning last time I visited Mak Japan), but have to stick with consoles for now. Hopefully moving back to Japan in a few years, so hopefully then!
|
|
|
Post by buckoa51 on Apr 20, 2011 17:50:20 GMT
The lines on the picture could well be due to deinterlacing, but it's more likely just composite video dotcrawl. Remember that apart from a handful of games the Saturn does not need deinterlacing since its signal is progressive anyway. However much equipment handles the 240p signal the Saturn outputs as 480i and makes a mess of it. Now the PS2 is a different kettle of fish altogether, most of it's games are 480i to begin with, with just a handful being 240p or even 480p.
No, not if you use RGB cables.
Monitors are more tolerant but there are no guarantees.
Also, I've not encountered any of these border or boxing problems Yuji talks about, my settings for Saturn and Megadrive are the same. I always use B1 mode however since it is relatively lag-free. really there's only two or three settings to change when switching consoles, brightness, NTSC AFC and AFC level. Certainly doesn't take 20 mins.
Depends on your monitor, usually no.
Inputting what exactly with component cables? For 480p sources, probably not. For interlaced stuff, depends how crappy the deinterlacer in your existing box is.
|
|
club
Saturn Player
Joined: January 2011
Posts: 115
Location:
|
Post by club on Apr 20, 2011 19:14:40 GMT
Thanks again for the detailed explanations here. The HD Box Pro sounds like a slightly better version of what I have at the moment. Sorry to keep asking questions but the monitor thing bothers me. With my current monitor, which is a bog standard Dell, I've used it to play NTSC Saturn and PS2, and Pal 360 all through my TVBox and seems to work ok (you saw what it did to the PS2 image, but the point is it does display an image, albeit not a great one). Why is it that it wouldn't work using the XRGB instead of the TVBox?
|
|
|
Post by buckoa51 on Apr 20, 2011 19:18:26 GMT
Because the XRGB3 is quirky like that. You could ask on the Shmups forum see if anyone else has one and has tested it.
|
|