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Post by Kibbles on Apr 24, 2011 9:02:04 GMT
I find it hard to believe the thing about SEGA wanting smoking references removed when there SEGA themselves have games with smoking characters in them...
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Post by Anthaemia. on Apr 24, 2011 13:14:36 GMT
I agree with your comment about that particular issue being difficult to believe at first, but once you look at it again in context the possibility seems more likely...
Not too long after realising how popular the MegaCD had become with an older demographic than Sega's intended market, it launched Deep Water - a sub label dedicated to software built around mature themes. I'm sure many of you remember the sequel to Eternal Champions, which was actually the first title released under the Deep Water name (complete with a truly and perhaps unintentionally hilarious logo FMV clip, in my opinion).
Fast-forward just a few years, and the Saturn conversion of Duke Nukem 3D became the final Deep Water game. While the potential was definitely there, in the end Sega abandoned its plans of separating older gamers from the younger, stereotypical market. You may recall that it was also during this period Sega of Japan made a conscious effort to reduce the number of adult Saturn titles, although I've always suspected the decision was a result of quality control over anything else. Besides, who honestly bought a Saturn to play dating sims ported over from the PC?
Turning its back on the adult market as a separate entity, Sega may very well have objected to certain themes in its software deemed unsuitable for the younger gamer. Then again, while I've no reason to doubt the validity of Sega going from releasing Duke Nukem 3D uncut to insisting on Metal Gear Solid being allegedly reworked within the space of a year, it's odd how the likes of Enemy Zero made it. Also, there's absolutely no mention of Capcom/Nextech having to alter Biohazard 2 when it was still an active Saturn-bound project.
In addition to his well-documented hatred for the RPG genre as a whole, it's been claimed in the past that Bernie Stolar's "five star games" policy was also a subtle excuse to allow filtering of titles he felt did not cater to the widest audience possible. There was a lot of discussion back in the day about how Sega Europe was responsible for convincing its American counterpart that Last Bronx should be issued in the west totally uncensored, despite the fact certain weapons are actually illegal to show in the UK - a fate that led to significant changes being made in the PAL edition of Soul Edge, which also suffered a minor retitling to Soul Blade during the same process.
When it came to making these kinds of choice, I've read that Stolar was instrumental in shaping a lot of the most influential Dreamcast games to have come not too long after his own departure from Sega. For example, although I doubt it was ever Yu Suzuki's intention to have Ryo Hazuki kill anyone, Stolar was very much against the idea of a killer app such as Shenmue promoting the ability to commit murder. Although Stolar's name was not mentioned as a direct influence, it's also been claimed before that Yakuza was created from a similar mindset, with deaths only shown when absolutely necessary in order to advance the plot.
Returning back to the subject of Eternal Champions again, it's already been confirmed by the series' producer that management in Japan made the order to abandon work on a concluding sequel as they preferred the comparatively more popular Virtua Fighter. However, there was also talk of the decision ultimately resting on the fact VF doesn't include blood. In fact, it's even been claimed Sega objected to a Saturn port of Tekken for the same reason quite early into the console's life. Preferring to release their flagship response to VF uncut, Namco simply kept it a PlayStation exclusive and chose not to have any business with Sega until a generation later, once its stance on violence had softened - possibly as a result of the high profile coverage a certain final Deep Water game managed to generate compared with the relatively butchered versions available for rival platforms.
Sorry to go on and bore you all, but the topic of censorship is definitely key to understanding why certain games never reached the Saturn!
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mattfrie1
Saturn Player
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Post by mattfrie1 on Apr 24, 2011 22:11:27 GMT
Sorry to go on and bore you all, but the topic of censorship is definitely key to understanding why certain games never reached the Saturn! Video game censorship has always been a topic that has interested me. I always found it interesting how Mortal Kombat 2 was handled in Japan. The Super Famicom port was censored with green blood and the screen turning black and white for fatalities. Also how MK2 was the only game given Sega of Japan's X-rating for only violence, whereas the label was used mostly for nudity. Did Sega's censorship also play a part in the Saturn versions of Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 and Mortal Kombat Trilogy never being released in Japan?
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Post by Anthaemia. on Apr 24, 2011 22:50:56 GMT
That actually could be a possibility, especially when you consider that many of the objections to a then-growing trend of games catering to an older audience originated from Japan. By the way, does anyone know if the proposed "MK Duo" (a planned compilation featuring the first two Mortal Kombats on a single disc) was canned in favour of MK Trilogy?
Anyway, I forgot to mention this in my earlier post, but I've found a few articles from back in the day regarding Sega of Japan's decision to no longer approve software featuring nudity - I'll see if I can find these for you all... I guess you could say that such titles were clearly seen as being too easy to come by over there during the Saturn period! *groan*
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Post by Stuart36 on Apr 24, 2011 23:01:53 GMT
Sega didn't have any censorship in the early days. hence why the controversial MK led to the ESRB being formed.
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Post by Syntesis on Apr 24, 2011 23:34:04 GMT
I don't buy the censorship thing Anathaemia, sorry. It completely contradicts Sega's past and present practices, you even mention evidence to the contrary yourself. This is not a company that would censor a game because Snake mentions his smokes a few times and uses them to expose security beams.
re: Yakuza, this is not a series that is shy about killing off characters. RGG3 also had Kazuma smoking on the front cover and it's full of scenes of characters smoking. Shenmue and Yakuza are completely different in "mindset".
I don't believe the Tekken thing either. Even if we make allowances for Sega's incredible incompetence back then, Namco were already in bed with Sony and Tekken was running on arcade hardware based on the PS1. No way did Namco offer up a Saturn port.
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mrsaturn
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Post by mrsaturn on Apr 29, 2011 4:06:38 GMT
Added info sites about: Dungeon Keeper Journeyman Project Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee Rattlesnake Red Spider Viewpoint Varuna's Forces Viper www.sega-saturn.net/nr/nr.htm
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Post by Yart on Apr 29, 2011 8:56:59 GMT
Viewpoint rules. I got it on the Neo CD. Great game that shoulda been on the Saturn for sure.
The PSX port's graphics were upgraded. I wonder how they woulda looked on the Saturn.
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Post by Stuart36 on Apr 29, 2011 9:54:25 GMT
oddworld would have been awesome on the saturn in all it's improved 2D glory.
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Post by Syntesis on Apr 29, 2011 11:16:11 GMT
Regarding Oddworld, how do you cancel that which never existed nor was even considered? Stuff like that ruins the integrity of the entire list...
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mrsaturn
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Post by mrsaturn on Apr 29, 2011 14:53:12 GMT
Regarding Oddworld, how do you cancel that which never existed nor was even considered? Stuff like that ruins the integrity of the entire list... Because it was mentioned in magazines, that a Saturn version is coming. So when someone reads this and can´t find the game in my list afterwards, he will ask, why it´s not in there. So what´s the problem. In the Oddworld info site you can see, that there was never a plan to release the game for Saturn (look at the developers views and the Saturn-Status = 0% [never planned]) But MAYBE, when i have all the infos on all the games, i will set up a third table with games that were mentioned, but never planned for Saturn...just for you ;D
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syn
There can be only one. Not eternal spamnation
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Post by syn on Apr 29, 2011 18:22:06 GMT
But MAYBE, when i have all the infos on all the games, i will set up a third table with games that were mentioned, but never planned for Saturn...just for you ;D I think that would be beneficial to your list
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Post by Anthaemia. on Apr 29, 2011 21:34:36 GMT
I realise many people here doubt my comments on Sega's censorship practices in the Saturn era, but there is considerable evidence of this happening - check out a 1996 article I found via Wayback Machine on the subject from Next Generation's website: "Sega of Japan has announced that nudity will be banned from all its games, starting October 1st. Although unheard of in the US, partial nudity does appear in some games aimed at the adult sector in Japan. Usually, the cartoon or anime characters appear in adventure games or simply to 'decorate' puzzle games. The company has reportedly come under pressure from various lobby groups in Japan, and has decided to act." (Source: www.next-generation.com/news/060696c.html)Syntesis, I should point out that Namco did more than just pitch its early PlayStation titles to Sega. In fact, a working build of Cyber Sled has been seen in rolling video form by a very reputable source. In addition to this, Ridge Racer has been spotted as well, though a conversion of Tekken was supposedly rejected in favour of Sega's own Virtua Fighter series, which is also why a third Eternal Champions never saw the light of day. Make of that what you will... P.S. Actually, my contact regarding the cancelled Saturn port of Cyber Sled was kind enough to send me a picture of this game as proof. I'd need a while to find it, but I seem to recall the image being taken with a camera held up to a screen running the internally-shown promotional footage. For the benefit of the curious, let's just say the person who provided this fascinating shot has links to several mid-90s developers and publishers so clearly knows his stuff.
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Post by Kibbles on Apr 29, 2011 22:49:43 GMT
That's a nice story Anthemia however I'm 60-90% certain Syntesis was talking about Metal Gear Solid with regards to censorship.
Seriously, why would the game be canned because of smoking DURING the development stage?
Game production documents include EVERYTHING about the game's story and gameplay design... SEGA would have to have approved the project in the first place for development to being at all.
More importantly, Kojima had no problem renaming the cigarettes 'Fogger' for the Gameboy Color installment of the game...
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Post by Syntesis on Apr 29, 2011 23:23:51 GMT
That's a nice story Anthemia however I'm 60-90% certain Syntesis was talking about Metal Gear Solid with regards to censorship. Seriously, why would the game be canned because of smoking DURING the development stage? Game production documents include EVERYTHING about the game's story and gameplay design... SEGA would have to have approved the project in the first place for development to being at all. More importantly, Kojima had no problem renaming the cigarettes 'Fogger' for the Gameboy Color installment of the game... I never made the connection despite the icon vaguely looking like a fag *facepalm* And yeah, Sega clamping down on hentai mahjong games is not evidence of heavy handed censorship on Sega's part. Just because they didn't want smut on their system doesn't mean that can be inferred as proof that they would want smoking references removed too. This isn't a company that sanitises its games let alone those of other companies. I know this is some years later but the Ryuu ga gotoku series prominently features child prostitution and serial murderers among other less than savoury things. All of the games take place in a red light district. Most of the main characters are seen smoking at some point too. Sega does what Nintendont.* Regarding Namco, if there is a story of some substance to tell here I'd love to hear it. If you do manage to publish that book I hope you will name your sources though *do you see what I did there?
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