I'm Getting RGB or Composite?

[IceMaN30]

I currently have my US Saturn hooked up to a Samsung lcd with an rgb scart cable (supposedly) to a rgb to yuv transcoder. This was my first rgb cable and the picture was much improved over the composite cable that it came with (I have an s-video cable but have no idea where it went). I have since ordered cables for the Genesis 2/32x and snes and the picture seems to be crisper and more vibrant on these consoles than the Saturn produces. So this had me start looking into how the Saturn cable is wired up to see if I was receiving RGB, composite or s-video. Below I have diagrams of how a EU cable should be wired and have another as to how mine is done.

Standard EU cable:


My cable:


I do know that an NTSC Saturn and an EU Saturn have different A/V pinouts so maybe this cable is correctly wired, I would just like some input before I start looking at another cable. Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

[buckoa51]

Yes, NTSC consoles output composite sync on pin 1, whereas PAL consoles sadly do not. That cable is unlikely to work with a US Saturn because there won't be enough voltage applied to Pin 16, which is required just as a signal to say "RGB is available on this connection"...

However, if it does work with your transcoder, its possible that your transcoder is RGB only and therefore ignores all the pins except 7,11 and 15. You could unsolder the composite video and replace it with the composite sync, see if that improves the picture. That's what I did in my setup.

As always, for best results on a HDTV, an external video-processor should be used!

[retro]

There's now "how it should be wired" exactly, apart from ensuring the correct signals are getting to the correct pins.

The resistor is used to connect pins 8 (aspect ratio and often used as a switch) and 16 (composite/RGB select). Pin 8 needs 9.5-12V for 4:3 aspect ratio, and pin 16 needs 1-3V for RGB. As we're only feeding it 5V, it'll only act as an on... but some televisions will switch to 16:9 with 5V (and that's probably why they bypassed it). So the voltage needs to go to pin 8, with the resistor used to reduce 5V to 1-3V to put the television into RGB mode. However, if your console is working without pin 8, it's just working on the RGB switch. You might want to try reducing the voltage with a resistor, though. Don't take what you find on the Internet as gospel - it may be fine, but measure your voltage and work it out yourself.

You might find that you need some filtering capacitors on the RGB lines, although I don't recall this being necessary on most Saturns. Also, at least some Japanese consoles output a different c-sync from the European models, so you had to make some adjustments to ensure everything was within SCART spec.

Definitely check all the outputs are within spec, particularly pin 16 being 1-3V.

Don't forget:

- LCD televisions aren't usually as good as CRT televisions for this sort of thing.
- Using an adapter is going to degrade the signal somewhat (although that may still be an improvement).
- A cheap SCART cable will give you a crap picture. PlayAsia's Saturn cables, for example, were dire.

If you want the best picture possible out of your Saturn and other old gaming consoles, get an old RGB Amiga monitor or and old Sony/Panasonic RGB broadcast monitor. Build a (monitor connector) to SCART adapter, and you're all set!

[buckoa51]

I assume if he is transcoding that his TV does not even have a SCART socket, since IceMan is in the USA this is highly likely. It's unlikely that the transcoder pays any attention to pin 8 and might ignore pin 16 too.

Using an adapter is going to degrade the signal somewhat (although that may still be an improvement).

Transcoding from RGB to Component won't degrade the signal by any significant amount, and will still be better than s-video.

You might find that you need some filtering capacitors on the RGB lines, although I don't recall this being necessary on most Saturns.

Not necessary on the Saturn

If you want the best picture possible out of your Saturn and other old gaming consoles, get an old RGB Amiga monitor

Tooo small! XRGB3 for the win

[NeoGeoNinja]

Aug 11, 2011 9:35:59 GMT retro said:

If you want the best picture possible out of your Saturn and other old gaming consoles, get an old RGB Amiga monitor...

Aug 11, 2011 9:55:40 GMT buckoa51 said:

Tooo small! XRGB3 for the win

BASED PURELY ON SIZE...
I'm totally inclined to agree with Buckoa here. I do know PPL who swear by using such a monitor for playing the Dreamcast, which apparently unleashes details not ordinarily seen on a regular CRT TV. And that's fine if you *like* to sit at a desk with a separate 14/15" Monitor set up somewhere in your house, but ALL of my consoles run (RGB) through the one CRT TV in my house, auto-switched. As such, that type of set-up really would not work for me. At all.

HOWEVER...

Aug 11, 2011 9:35:59 GMT retro said:

...or and old Sony/Panasonic RGB broadcast monitor.

What is a "Broadcast Monitor" (by Sony or Pana)? I've never heard of one of these before! Are these of a more acceptable size for social gaming and larger game set-ups (i.e. 21" MINIMUM!)?

Aug 11, 2011 9:35:59 GMT retro said:

Build a (monitor connector) to SCART adapter, and you're all set!

I DON'T BUILD THINGS...
I'm afraid. I just buy them! And, if I can't buy for whatever reason, I'm not going to go and build it.... because I can't!

[retro]

Precisely - if you think a broadcast monitor is too small, you don't know what one is. Broadcast monitors are what are used in the television industry, so they range from about 9" rackmount monitors (that were only really for previews) up to the huge things you'd see in the gallery.

Having said that, considering you're really supposed to sit about 3 times the diagonal from the screen, 14" Commodore monitors were great for bedroom use. It's only modern society that's deemed older televisions "too small" - I bet a lot of people with 50" plasmas have them far too close to their eyes, which isn't good for them! And when you think about it, a 21" CRT has about the same viewing size as a 26" LCD in 4:3, a 25" CRT has about the same viewing size as a 32" LCD, and a 29" CRT is about the same size as a 37" LCD.

Converting the signal from RGB to component in this manner WILL degrade it. However, as I said before, it's still going to be an improvement. I would be surprised if his box is ignoring pin 16, as it tells it what signal you're giving it! Unless they assume you're going to be putting RGB and RGB only into them... but there are too many idiots who think that the composite blocks you get with PlayStations are SCART and therefore must be the best possible signal quality for that! ;-)

Going back to the broadcast monitors, you should find them in 20", 25" and 29" at least. This one's quite nice, and well priced:

cgi.ebay.com/SONY-PVM-2950-TRINITRON-MULTI-MEDIA-29-COLOR-MONITOR-/360385874806?pt=Computer_Monitors&hash=item53e8ac0b76

Looks like the same guy's on Craigslist:

orlando.craigslist.org/ele/2506990022.html

Of course, being an American one, it's very unlikely to have a SCART input (some UK ones do), which is where you'll need to build an adapter. It's a very simple affair - connect R, G, B, composite and audio (if you want it through the monitor) to a SCART socket, including the grounds, of course! If you got such a monitor and wanted one, I could make one... once my website's operational, I'll be selling them on there, too.

And the manual is still on the Sony site:

esupport.sony.com/perl/model-documents.pl?mdl=PVM2950Q

Bear in mind that the 29" version is HEAVY. It's over 50 kilos... so well over 100lbs.

*EDIT*

P.S. Unless you're using a very expensive switcher, the majority of SCART multi-blocks are horrible, horrible things that will degrade your signal, too. Some of them even gave you terrible interference if you left the VCR plugged in whilst playing your console - not good at all!!

[NeoGeoNinja]

retro...
thanks for all that. I actually found it rather interesting, as I'd never ever come across 'Broadcast Monitors' before.

I'll be honest; they have definitely interested me, especially if the quality/standard is as good as has been suggested. Similarly though, I hope there aren't any silly complications due to it being more specialised hardware than a standard 29" CRT?

For example, the TV I use now works just 'fine' with all my console hooked up via powered/auto switched RGB SCART boxes. The picture is VERY good, albeit, this current TV is not (my old one died, so I can see the difference).

For example, I always read about PPL saying the NeoGeo is 'funny' when it comes to TV's due to an odd refresh rate... or something? Wouldn't wanna buy one just for it to be troublesome in one way or another, because as I have alluded to earlier in this thread, I'm not AT ALL tech savvy

AS FOR THAT SONY MONITOR...
it looks very nice. Speakers aren't an issue, as sound is output through an external source anyway. RGB in is an issue though. I only need the ONE RGB 'in', so maybe a UK/PAL Monitor would be best, even as opposed to a self-made switcher (like you've suggested)? Would save on hassle, perhaps??

Shame it's in the USA! Shipping = remortgage!!

AS FOR A 50KG MONITOR...
well, compared to the 36" panasonic quintrix CRT I used to own? That used to be around 80-90Kg! It physically weighed MORE than me!!

[retro]

As you're in the UK, you'd be much better off with a UK-based one... and they're usually quite plentiful over here (I linked that more for the US-based people such as the OP). The added bonus is that there were a fair few that were either used in other professional situations (schools, clubs etc.) or that they needed connection to consumer equipment for some reason... so they have SCART sockets!

I'm not seeing one on eBay that big at the moment, but look out for broadcast monitor or sony PVM* . You'll also find companies that do broadcast surplus, although they can be expensive (there's one down here called MVS Broadcast)... and even broadcast liquidation auctions.

As for whether they're better than a quality UK CRT TV, you'd have to be the judge of that!

[buckoa51]

He's in Australia.

Commercial displays actually make a lot of sense for gaming in flat screen too, since they usually have less of the fancy image processing and whatnot that causes input lag on many consumer HDTV's. Basically you're right though, CRT is always going to be best for retro, some of us only have room for 1 TV though, either a nice size HDTV with a video-processor or two or a tiny CRT that won't do hi-def at all, easy choice for me.

Converting the signal from RGB to component in this manner WILL degrade it. However, as I said before, it's still going to be an improvement.

There is a certain difference (actually has to be) which is caused by the fact that RGB uses a 4:4:4 color resolution (meaning all color channels are kept in full res), while component uses 4:2:2 which means that only the the luminance channel is kept in full res), while the color channels are transmitted in half resolution only. Since the resolution is based on the full 15khz bandwidth, it's hard to notice with low-res games since the half res of the color channel is still enough to cover the complete low-res resolution ( thanks to my friend Fudoh over at the Shmups forum for this explanation)

I would be surprised if his box is ignoring pin 16, as it tells it what signal you're giving it!

Actually much equipment does ignore this pin and simply not work if the signal is not RGB. ABT's videoprocessors, XRGB and high end transcoders spring to mind.

[zyrobs]

Aug 11, 2011 9:35:59 GMT retro said:

The resistor is used to connect pins 8 (aspect ratio and often used as a switch) and 16 (composite/RGB select). Pin 8 needs 9.5-12V for 4:3 aspect ratio, and pin 16 needs 1-3V for RGB. As we're only feeding it 5V, it'll only act as an on... but some televisions will switch to 16:9 with 5V (and that's probably why they bypassed it). So the voltage needs to go to pin 8, with the resistor used to reduce 5V to 1-3V to put the television into RGB mode. However, if your console is working without pin 8, it's just working on the RGB switch. You might want to try reducing the voltage with a resistor, though. Don't take what you find on the Internet as gospel - it may be fine, but measure your voltage and work it out yourself.

Or just not connect the scart pin 8 to anything and have aspect ratio control off. I don't think it matters on any TVs (logically thinking, it shouldn't...).

[retro]

Aug 11, 2011 22:49:17 GMT zyrobs said:

Or just not connect the scart pin 8 to anything and have aspect ratio control off. I don't think it matters on any TVs (logically thinking, it shouldn't...).

I think you misunderstand. Pin 8 is aspect ratio AND switching. You know how your TV switches to the right channel when you turn your DVD player / games console / whatever on? That's pin 8 saying "hey, you've got a device on this SCART socket!" So EVERY television with a SCART socket will be looking for something on pin 8. Disconnect that, and you'll have to manually switch to the correct channel every time.

[IceMaN30]

Thanks for all the great replies guys! Sorry I haven't responded sooner, I was out of town for a bit and work had me working way to many hours.

Aug 11, 2011 8:50:47 GMT buckoa51 said:

Yes, NTSC consoles output composite sync on pin 1, whereas PAL consoles sadly do not. That cable is unlikely to work with a US Saturn because there won't be enough voltage applied to Pin 16, which is required just as a signal to say "RGB is available on this connection"...

However, if it does work with your transcoder, its possible that your transcoder is RGB only and therefore ignores all the pins except 7,11 and 15. You could unsolder the composite video and replace it with the composite sync, see if that improves the picture. That's what I did in my setup.

As always, for best results on a HDTV, an external video-processor should be used!

This cable does work with my US console but the image produced seems to be not on the same level as my genesis and snes. I will try replacing composite video with composite sync and see how that goes.

As for an external video processor I'm waiting for reviews on the xrgb-mini to come out and see how that performs otherwise I'm considering on getting an xrgb-3 and slg-3000. The only place I've been able to find any recent info on the xrgb-mini is on the thread over at system 11.

On a side note thanks for your informative website as it started and helped me down the road of researching and soon purchasing (I hope) and external processor for gaming.

[quote author=retro board=hardware thread=4675 post=55910
time=1313055359]However, if your console is working without pin 8, it's just working on the RGB switch. You might want to try reducing the voltage with a resistor, though. Don't take what you find on the Internet as gospel - it may be fine, but measure your voltage and work it out yourself.

Definitely check all the outputs are within spec, particularly pin 16 being 1-3

Don't forget:

- LCD televisions aren't usually as good as CRT televisions for this sort of thing.
- Using an adapter is going to degrade the signal somewhat (although that may still be an improvement).
- A cheap SCART cable will give you a crap picture. PlayAsia's Saturn cables, for example, were dire.

If you want the best picture possible out of your Saturn and other old gaming consoles, get an old RGB Amiga monitor or and old Sony/Panasonic RGB broadcast monitor. Build a (monitor connector) to SCART adapter, and you're all set! [/quote]

Thanks for the info on checking the voltage on the scart cable, I will check that along with the suggestion that buckoa51 made. As for the broadcast monitor I haven't heard of that before. It does sound interesting though I don't have any room for another monitor in my place but if it's as good as it sounds then I might be forced to

[buckoa51]

otherwise I'm considering on getting an xrgb-3 and slg-3000.

Not much point getting a slg-3000 to use with the XRGB3 (in your case anyway). It would only be of use in B0 mode and that doesn't work with most TV's.

[IceMaN30]

Well I rewired the composite video on pin 20 with composite sync and I'm getting the exact same picture. So from what I can tell the cable must be sending rgb since composite video is no longer wired. Perhaps its just the cables quality in general as to why the picture seems slightly blurred/desaturated.

On something completely unrelated, I purchased a manual scart switch box and it came in the mail today and in general it works great. I currently have my Genesis 2/32x, snes, and Saturn hooked up to it. To my surprise if I have all three switches pushed in on the box, the switch will output any signal that is currently powered on as long as there is only one signal present. In other words if I have all the switches active and only use one console at a time then this manual box becomes automatic ;D though there are two issues that I have run into so far.

One is that although that this switch is "automatic" the Genesis won't display an image properly unless it is the lone selected device on the switch. If another port is activated on the scart switch but not another signal, then the Genesis video get distorted and cuts in and out.

The other one isn't really an issue but more of another surprise. Anytime I power on the Genesis, the power light on the snes lights up though the system doesn't actually power on. Almost as if the 5v in the scart cable from the Genesis is going to the switch and then back down through the snes scart cable powering the led? Weird. Has anyone run into anything like this? Perhaps the Genesis scart cable is the culprit for both of these abnormalities?

[buckoa51]

Perhaps its just the cables quality in general as to why the picture seems slightly blurred/desaturated.

What transcoder are you using?

Has anyone run into anything like this?

Yes, it's all well documented on my site under "Gamers guide to SCART".