Aydan
Joined: August 2007
Posts: 2,086
Location:
|
Post by Aydan on Nov 23, 2011 9:51:02 GMT
I've never noticed any differences between games to be fair. The only significant thing I did recognise was that powerslave (Exhumed in PAL) is better in NTSC, the problem with slipperly ledges seems to not be as bad as PAL and also the game has better placed items etc. It'd kinda odd but simple things like that affect that game big time. Anyways, I've never really noticed skipping at the start of tracks before, I use burned copies so maybe thats why? I did notice it happening on Daytona USA CCE though, i reburnt it and as far as I recall I never noticed it again.. I THINK it does it on my sega rally netlink though, however it's like 0.30 of a second so it's not that big of an issue. Where did you find out it's supposed to happen on ntsc titles anyway? If it's true then that puts another worry away for those who think they're burning ntsc games wrong when really it's just a fault of the original titles themselves  |
|
|
|
Post by buckoa51 on Nov 23, 2011 10:03:24 GMT
Eh? No it's not, there's no odd/even scanlines in a progressive scan resolution.
Also, my Saturn's SCART is modded for pure sync if anyone wants to put this "colours are different even when using RGB" myth to bed definitively I'll be happy to make some screenshots. When not using pure sync I do see some additional dot-crawl on certain colours, so maybe that's what people are seeing, depending on their TVs/AV equipment.
|
|
Aydan
Joined: August 2007
Posts: 2,086
Location:
|
Post by Aydan on Nov 23, 2011 10:07:02 GMT
Dot drawl?  |
|
|
|
Post by buckoa51 on Nov 23, 2011 10:36:59 GMT
dot crawl, yes, like there's a bunch of tiny ants crawling over certain colours. Nothing as bad as what you get with composite of course. Happens sometimes when you run a 50hz console at 60hz on certain TV's or equipment. Using pure sync cures this usually.
|
|
|
|
Post by zyrobs on Nov 23, 2011 11:06:21 GMT
Eh? No it's not, there's no odd/even scanlines in a progressive scan resolution. Yes, but NTSC/PAL are not progressive. They use 480i and 576i, respectively. Games just use half of those lines - the rest of the lines aren't magically dropped out of the hardware, they are just never updated, and stay blank. Pure sync makes RGB better because the lack of composite video means less crosstalk in the thin, crowded Scart cable. That has nothing to do with PAL or NTSC, and should be the same on all consoles (provided we are comparing models with the same video encoders and internal buildups - I have a Saturn with a third party video encoder IC that produces a notably worse signal even in RGB). |
|
Aydan
Joined: August 2007
Posts: 2,086
Location:
|
Post by Aydan on Nov 23, 2011 11:22:24 GMT
i've never noticed this dot crawl before and i usualloyu can pickup and strange things like that. Ah well lucky me.
|
|
|
|
Post by zyrobs on Nov 23, 2011 11:34:10 GMT
I'm talking about a short pop at the beginning (or end) of each track. If you inspect the track in a hexeditor, you can see that the pop is caused by a RIFF WAVE header.
It works like this: Saturn games were put together by an app that "built" a disc image out of your code. You had this huge script that told in what sector order and what directory order should your game files go in the data track, and what files should become audio tracks. This cd image could be either ran on the Saturn using the Virtual CD interface, or burned to a CDR. These CDR "master copies" were then sent to magazines for (p)review, SEGA for approval, and / or into the manufacturing plants where they eventually made the retail discs.
The thing is, when this app builds your game, it doesn't preprocess any files, it just copies the data over. So if a developer had the music tracks as *.wav files (so they can be listened easily), then the entire *.wav file data got copied over, including the file header that tells that "this is a Wave file of this bit depth / length / sampling rate / mono/stereo etc".
On an Audio CD, there are no headers like this, since the format is standardized in a fixed quality - on an Audio CD, you just have a raw stream of audio. The small pop you sometimes hear at the beginning / end of an audio track is usually this wave header data, played back as if it was audio.
This is completely game dependent, and I've found that it just happens on USA titles more often. I guess developers payed less attention sometimes, or were unaware of this issue (it doesn't take away much from the gameplay). From the top of my head, I think Toshinden Remix had this in at least one release of the game. Game on other consoles (I remember some Sega CD games like this) or even some normal Audio CDs (Red Alert 3 OST) can also have this issue, sometimes. It's just poor mastering.
For a more extreme example, you can check the game Z. There, they managed to link the intro video of the game into an audio track. It just plays back as white noise if you listen to the track, but you can see it in a hexeditor that it's indeed a video file.
Or even worse, Skeleton Warriors (PAL) has half the audio tracks completely fucked up. They are either random noise, silence, or bad quality tracks from Virtua Fighter (as I recall, may have been some other game though). The USA version was not affected.
|
|
Aydan
Joined: August 2007
Posts: 2,086
Location:
|
Post by Aydan on Nov 23, 2011 11:41:24 GMT
^ Ahh that pop i think i recognise, but it's SO subtle i never even really notice half the time to be honest. and again it's not exactly loud like a distorted pop or whatever. How did the pal version not have those then? I can't imagine dev's taking their time to fix it or change it for PAL. Interesting stuff though |
|
|
|
Post by zyrobs on Nov 23, 2011 11:48:30 GMT
i've never noticed this dot crawl before and i usualloyu can pickup and strange things like that. Ah well lucky me. I can see it on my plasma (and indeed got better results when using pure sync), but I totally couldn't see it on a CRT tv at my sisters place, using a cheap simple RGB cable that produced a wave of dot crawl on my own screen. I guess the cable picked up more interference from my TV since it was practically right on the back of the screen, for its entire length. It's just a question of how well the cables are shielded. I think Tokyo Hospice made some supposedly high-quality well shielded Saturn RGB cables, but they are long out of production. The best we'd get today is hacking off the mini-din connector from an existing cheaper RGB cable, building a small male-minidin-to-female-scart converter box, and then using that with some separate, high-quality Scart cables (those extra thick ones with sealed connectors that cost 10x as much as a normal scart lead). |
|
|
|
Post by zyrobs on Nov 23, 2011 11:52:05 GMT
^ Ahh that pop i think i recognise, but it's SO subtle i never even really notice half the time to be honest. and again it's not exactly loud like a distorted pop or whatever. How did the pal version not have those then? I can't imagine dev's taking their time to fix it or change it for PAL. Interesting stuff though It was fixed on PAL versions cause, I guess, SOMEONE actually payed attention when mastering the games. And it's not a PAL/NTSC thing either. It's there on some copies, not there on others... completely game dependent. |
|
Aydan
Joined: August 2007
Posts: 2,086
Location:
|
Post by Aydan on Nov 23, 2011 12:00:30 GMT
Ah fair enough. some cool info in this thread for sure, and again I've never seen dot crawl on my hd tv using RGB scart so win win. Like you said maybe my cable's just well made or whatever. Either way s'all good |
|
|
|
Post by zyrobs on Nov 23, 2011 12:05:22 GMT
Here's some more cool info then: Remove pin 19 from your Scart cable (only on the side that plugs into your TV!) and you'll get exactly half as much composite interference.
|
|
|
|
Post by buckoa51 on Nov 23, 2011 16:22:48 GMT
Uh, yes, they are, when dealing with older computers or consoles anyway. Most Saturn games run at a resolution of 320x240 progressive. Some games (Virtua Fighter) use interlace for higher resolution.
I don't believe that is the only reason, since I can have a game in a 50/60hz modded console, switch the console over from 60hz to 50hz (or the other way round) and eliminate the dot crawl instantly.
|
|
|
|
Post by zyrobs on Nov 23, 2011 17:51:29 GMT
Uh, yes, they are, when dealing with older computers or consoles anyway. Most Saturn games run at a resolution of 320x240 progressive. Some games (Virtua Fighter) use interlace for higher resolution. That's what the console sends. But it does that on a 525 / 625 line PAL/NTSC signal. If you are comparing the console resolution to PAL/NTSC resolutions, you should take note of this. Is that with pure sync, or when you still have composite out? Remember that composite is not the only thing creating dot crawl in there. You have 3 video signals, a composite signal, DC voltage, and two audio channels. Plenty of chance for crosstalk there, which is why you also get noisy audio most of the time. And the interference runs both ways: even if I separate the audio cables completely on my machine to different connectors, they still get noisy when I plug in the scart cable. |
|
|
|
Post by buckoa51 on Nov 23, 2011 18:01:59 GMT
You get 240 progressive (NTSC) or 288 progressive (PAL). The lines are not left black, the two fields are overlaid on each other. Back in the day we used to call it "non interlace" now people call it progressive.
When using composite video for sync, pure sync cures the problem entirely.
|
|
