Picture problem please help.....

[jamiegtr666]

First of all I would like to say a big hello to everybody on these boards. Im a new Saturn owner and looking to get into the system and discover some great games that the machine has to offer.

I have a problem that I cant seem to find a solution to so Im hoping you guys can help.

Ok here goes.....

I have 2 Sega Saturns,

A Model 1 and a Model 2, both PAL.

Now when I purchased the Model 1 Saturn I connected it to my HDTV via the supplyed RGB cable. Picture was full RGB but the colours would mess up. The only way to get a good stable picture was to wiggle the cable at the back of the Saturn. Of course I assumed it was the 10pin mini din input on the Saturn that had developed wear and tear over time and was giving me a dodgy picture. I tried another cable, same issue. I openened up the Saturn and re-flowed solder on the contact points and the issue was still present.

I decided to bite the bullet and purchase another Saturn a Model 2, this time checking with the seller that the picture issue was not there. 

I received the new Saturn along with another RGB scart cable and while the system worked and outputted in full RGB the picture had this slight wobble to it.

I then decided to try the scart cable that I got with my Model 2 with my Model 1 and guess what perfect picture and no picture wobble and no problems with the colours. Turns out nothing was wrong with my Model 1's input socket but it was the cable. Guess it was a higher quality cable or something?

So here is my main problem that I just cant work out.

With the same cable the Model 1 gives me a perfect picture that can be seen below. When using the same cable with the Model 2 it gives me a picture with a slight wobble to it.

Ok here are 2 screenshots that I have taken with my phone to try and show you what the problem is.

Its hard to see but the first pic is from the Model 1 sega saturn, note the perfectly straight lines on the text, for example the "E" in the word "English"

Now take a look at the second pic, this is from the Model 2 Sega Saturn using the same RGB cable and power cord. Look again at the "E" in the word "English and notice the wobble on the text and how it is not straight like the first picture.

Model 1 Perfect picture




Model 2 wobble in picture



This is the best picture that I could capture and is quite hard to see with just a still picture, its more extreme in real life. I really dont have a clue as to why the Model 2 is giving me this picture wobble? Thinking something different with the hardware or maybe a problem with the Power Supply?    

Anyway once again hello to you all and please let me know if you have anything to add as to why im getting this picture problem from my model 2 Sega Saturn?

Thanks

Jamie

[buckoa51]

HDTVs and retro consoles are never a good mix without some kind of upscaler. I'd say a slight wobble to the picture was the least of your worries Model 1 and Model 2 consoles are known for having slightly different RGB outputs though the difference is usually minimal at best. The only thing you can try is using a clean sync cable, though some HDTVs will reject that. I'd say just use the model 1, it's the machine with the best quality RGB output anyway.

[NeoGeoNinja]

Hi Jamie. Welcome to the SS:UK!

Until Bucko brought it up, I'd completely forgot about the quality variation in RGB out between Model 1 & Model 2 Saturns.

It reminded me that we did have a thread on it last year at some point. Dug it up, so take a look: segasaturngroup.proboards.com/thread/6611?page=2

Also, here is the site that did it's own comparisons:

retrorgb.com/saturncompare.html & retrorgb.com/saturn.html

Potentially, Zyrobs might chime in too. Between Zyrobs and Bucko, you're in safe hands, as they really do know their sh*t between them! They're the equivalent of our combined technical team to be honest...

[zyrobs]

Original SCART cables are almost 20 years old, so they definitely have contact problems on the Saturn end of the connector. I've come across quite a lot of cables that had problems like that. Luckily, there is an ebay seller who sells replacement 10-pin connectors, which can be used to repair them. Soldering in such a tiny place can be difficult, though.

For the wobble, model 2 VA6+ PAL units are known to do it (NTSC ones only do it for certain board types). Nothing that can be done about it, as far as I know. They only appear on HDTVs oddly, I guess they are more sensitive to some part of the signal. It might be fixable some way, but I have not the equipment nor the knowledge to do so.

[buckoa51]

Ah yes he did say PAL didn't he? Sorry, clean/raw sync cables do not work on PAL consoles (well, unless you're willing to do some internal hardware modifications, bit much for something that probably won't make a difference).

[jamiegtr666]

Sept 26, 2014 8:32:28 GMT buckoa51 said:

HDTVs and retro consoles are never a good mix without some kind of upscaler. I'd say a slight wobble to the picture was the least of your worries Model 1 and Model 2 consoles are known for having slightly different RGB outputs though the difference is usually minimal at best. The only thing you can try is using a clean sync cable, though some HDTVs will reject that. I'd say just use the model 1, it's the machine with the best quality RGB output anyway.

Interesting to know thanks for the info. Knowing this issue has completely put me off the Model 2 to be honest as its an issue that I can notice and for me personally is enough to spoil the overal picture. Its one of those issues that once you notice it you cant help but always see it.

[jamiegtr666]

Sept 26, 2014 9:27:51 GMT NeoGeoNinja said:

Hi Jamie. Welcome to the SS:UK!

Until Bucko brought it up, I'd completely forgot about the quality variation in RGB out between Model 1 & Model 2 Saturns.

It reminded me that we did have a thread on it last year at some point. Dug it up, so take a look: segasaturngroup.proboards.com/thread/6611?page=2

Also, here is the site that did it's own comparisons:

retrorgb.com/saturncompare.html & retrorgb.com/saturn.html

Potentially, Zyrobs might chime in too. Between Zyrobs and Bucko, you're in safe hands, as they really do know their sh*t between them! They're the equivalent of our combined technical team to be honest...

Thanks for the info and the invite to the boards! 

[jamiegtr666]

Sept 26, 2014 10:52:07 GMT zyrobs said:

Original SCART cables are almost 20 years old, so they definitely have contact problems on the Saturn end of the connector. I've come across quite a lot of cables that had problems like that. Luckily, there is an ebay seller who sells replacement 10-pin connectors, which can be used to repair them. Soldering in such a tiny place can be difficult, though.

For the wobble, model 2 VA6+ PAL units are known to do it (NTSC ones only do it for certain board types). Nothing that can be done about it, as far as I know. They only appear on HDTVs oddly, I guess they are more sensitive to some part of the signal. It might be fixable some way, but I have not the equipment nor the knowledge to do so.

Just to let you know that I have also tried the console on my Sony Trinitron CRT that outputs full RGB and the issue is still present. So just to recap the issue is present when running the Model 2 Saturn on both my CRT and HDTV.

[zyrobs]

Last time I checked the wobble was either not there, or much less noticeable on the CRT I used. I believe it is related to the power supply, since NTSC versions of the same boards exhibit much less issues.

There is also a glaring big, constant wobble on the topmost part of the screen, which is always present.

This is only present on VA6+ model 2 units. Early model 2s used VA4/5 boards which were also used in late model 1s. Those do not give this issue. I haven't tested VA10+ units much - they use some different parts, and different video encoders too, I recall the problem being much less visible on those.
IIRC the problem is the worst on VA8 and VA9 units, which also use the original split-SH1 design. Since the wobble gets more extreme when the CD drive is loading, it could be related to that.
PAL model 2s can use VA5 PAL, VA9, VA7 PAL, and VA13 PAL boards, in that chronological order.


I don't know exactly what causes this, spent caps, design fault made worse by the wear over the ages, some voltage ripple like the one that causes that power supply problem, etc.

[jamiegtr666]

Ok so here are 2 videos that I have taken with my phone to show you what the problem is. Below is the model 1 Saturn and as you can see the picture is perfect with no issues.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gBlSqlID4U&list=UUnFo2uBHBBzDSKB5pH6DwcA

Now for the Model 2 Saturn, notice how the text has quite an extreme wobble to it. The whole picture is like this but its very noticable on the text. This issue is present all the time from booting the console to playing a game, its always there.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Uc7jqD-n70&list=UUnFo2uBHBBzDSKB5pH6DwcA

Any input once again would be a great help so please let me know. Once again let me point out that this is being done with the same TV, RGB cable and power cord on both consoles. Im interested now that I have posted these videos to know if this is a problem with the Saturn or just something to do with the differences between the two Saturn models and this is completely normal and not a hardware issue with my Model 2 Saturn? Im hoping its not a hardware issue as this Model 2 Saturn is MINT and I really do mean that, it looks brand new and it would be such a shame if this was a major issue.

Thanks again!

[zyrobs]

What is the serial of the machine?

[jamiegtr666]

AD69091214

[zyrobs]

Yeah, that's a VA9, it is the most susceptible to this problem. It is normal. Other board types in PAL Model 2 machines either have it to a lesser degree or none at all, depending on board type.

[jamiegtr666]

Sept 26, 2014 22:45:58 GMT zyrobs said:

Yeah, that's a VA9, it is the most susceptible to this problem. It is normal. Other board types in PAL Model 2 machines either have it to a lesser degree or none at all, depending on board type.

Great to know thanks, at least now I know its not a hardware fault and its normal. Think ill just sell the console and stick with my far better Model 1. Now I know this personally I will NEVER buy another Model 2.

Also why does this happen, whats going on with the Model 2 compared to Model 1 to make this happen?

[zyrobs]

Not all Model 2s do that, keep in mind. The one you have is just the one that has the worst case of it.