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Post by buckoa51 on Jul 12, 2012 15:09:19 GMT
no but I've never known that to make much difference, I put one on of my own but it didn't seem to help. I think the output of the Model2 is just kinda noisy. I would definitely be interested to try a SCART cable like that though, where did you buy it from? Is it a raw sync model?
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Post by zyrobs on Jul 12, 2012 15:42:19 GMT
Found it on random auctions. I want to know where they come from too.
It's probably not the chokes making the difference, but the fact that the cable is VERY thick. The shielding is thicker and the signal cables inside are thicker as well. It's a PAL cable so no raw sync (that shit is overrated).
I've found no difference in video quality between any model saturns (and I specifically buy different motherboard types for testing). The only one I've seen is that va7+ PAL motherboards have a weaker sync which manifests in the signal jumping on random rows whenever the CD is loading. It's not a problem in early model 2s as they still use VA SD motherboards (also used in late model 1s).
But as far as RGB signal goes, there is no difference.
edit: that video is not in rgb24...
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Post by buckoa51 on Jul 12, 2012 16:06:56 GMT
Colour bleed problem fixed now (will upload again later). Model 1 Saturn's definitely have a nicer RGB output than model 2's though probably not an issue unless you have an upscaler. Raw sync did make a big difference to picture quality for me and is needed for the XRGB3. Perhaps if I could find one of those amazing SCART's it wouldn't make a difference but I'd imagine XRGB3 would still need it. If you do come across another one of those let me know.
You're right it's not RGB, AMV2 codec doesn't support that and it's defaulted back to YUY2.
Edit, done more tests, not entirely happy about levels of picture noise, will investigate more.
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Post by zyrobs on Jul 12, 2012 20:03:37 GMT
That amv2 codec does support rgb, I did a test encode and it can do rgb just fine. But I suspect that it's your input is not in rgb colorspace. I don't know what is your tool chain here though. That's why I mentioned grabbing raw video. Tell you what, you get me a xrgb3 and I'll get you one of these hq scart cables  |
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Post by buckoa51 on Jul 12, 2012 20:14:29 GMT
AMV2 MT R3: Lossy only supports YUV444,YUY2, that's what Amerec defaults to you see. Some reason it won't let me select losless that does support RGB, need to look into that more.
I don't think there's a RAW video option, that would be somewhat insane file sizes. There's losless codecs, but I'm still experimenting to find the best one.
I was thinking of selling it but I'm keeping it for a while, I'll um, remember the offer though lol
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Post by zyrobs on Jul 12, 2012 22:22:57 GMT
Well the codec you linked to can do rgb24 lossless, so it should be ideal either for storage or as an intermediate save (to make multipass h264 encodes out of later on).
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Post by buckoa51 on Jul 13, 2012 10:48:23 GMT
Here's a losless re-encode, brightness problem fixed, colour shift fixed dl.dropbox.com/u/1488717/cotton2-test-3-ffdshow.aviAs I understand it though, retro consoles have somewhat limited colour palettes anyway, so there should be little need to go to RGB colour space? |
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Post by zyrobs on Jul 13, 2012 19:03:21 GMT
Checked the video. Huge improvement, but I still see some video noise, mostly in empty black parts or still pictures (title screen). And a little color error at the same place as before, but it's much less notable now. I think you have an excessive amount of cables in your setup, and it's responsible for some noise. Couldn't you go directly Saturn RGB -> capture card? It may help. As I understand it though, retro consoles have somewhat limited colour palettes anyway, so there should be little need to go to RGB colour space? Yes, but they still "work" using RGB color values, they just have less of them to work with (and this only applies to old consoles. The Saturn can only display 24bit rgb graphics). In video encoding you have luminance and color difference, not RGB. And YUY2 has the color difference in half resolution too, so you may as well capture with s-video... And it's not a problem to have yuv 422 in the encoded video, h264 can work wonders with that. I think the problem you had was that your input was not straight rgb but some packed format instead. |
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Post by buckoa51 on Jul 13, 2012 22:29:17 GMT
Tried, makes no difference. I can't see any noise now even when the image is totally black and with my nose against the monitor.
I did zoom the picture and couldn't see the colour error as far as I could tell, you can sort of see a row of pixels at the very edge of the screen that seems to be slightly darker just where the sky is, but that might be on the original too. It's not sticking out of the edge of the image like before. What I'd need to do is fire up something like the 240p test suite to see for sure, but my Genesis is out of action at the mo.
That's not really true as far as I understand anyway, I will have to ask Tobias or someone more knowledgeable to confirm, but from what I understand YUY2 exists to reduce the RGB color range in areas that are difficult for people to perceive. The colour shift before is a known bug of the card, corrected it in software.
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Post by zyrobs on Jul 13, 2012 22:49:05 GMT
Tried, makes no difference. I can't see any noise now even when the image is totally black and with my nose against the monitor. Turn up the brightness in your monitor. There's a LOT of noise there. I did zoom the picture and couldn't see the colour error as far as I could tell, you can sort of see a row of pixels at the very edge of the screen that seems to be slightly darker just where the sky is, but that might be on the original too. It's not sticking out of the edge of the image like before. What I'd need to do is fire up something like the 240p test suite to see for sure, but my Genesis is out of action at the mo. It's at the exact same place, the blue background as it touches the non-blue parts. Except that now it's the right part that goes dark before it should, and the left one that overflows. That's not really true as far as I understand anyway, I will have to ask Tobias or someone more knowledgeable to confirm, but from what I understand YUY2 exists to reduce the RGB color range in areas that are difficult for people to perceive. The colour shift before is a known bug of the card, corrected it in software. YUY2 is just one method of storing YUV 4:2:2 information. It's already converted from RGB, and already had its color information downsampled. I don't know what is your exact tool chain here, nor do I have the card to test for myself, so I can only guess around at what's going wrong. If the color shift is a fault of the card, then perhaps you just need to nail down the amount of compensation needed to offset the problem. |
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Post by buckoa51 on Jul 14, 2012 8:27:04 GMT
That's the whole point though, if you turn up your brightness you start to see things that are below video black that you're not supposed to be seeing. Your monitor is too bright.
Card only supports capture in YUY2.
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Post by buckoa51 on Jul 14, 2012 11:14:24 GMT
You can definitely see the colour shift when you compare two shots side by side. With the correction though, I think its pretty spot on. For under £100 I think the quality of the card is great personally. screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/135561 |
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Post by zyrobs on Jul 14, 2012 14:47:44 GMT
That's the whole point though, if you turn up your brightness you start to see things that are below video black that you're not supposed to be seeing. Your monitor is too bright. Or yours is not bright enough... and point is to make errors more distinguishable, so you can spot (and correct) them easier. |
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Post by buckoa51 on Jul 14, 2012 17:07:12 GMT
Errors below video black aren't a concern, its probably the analogue/digital conversion being unsure where to clip. Apart from having the house re-wired (to eliminate the possibility of it being ground loop interference) there's nothing more I can do about it anyway.
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Post by zyrobs on Jul 17, 2012 0:06:43 GMT
It's not below video black, the artifacts are right there, they are just difficult to notice. Turning up the brightness on your monitor makes it easier to notice the problem. But yeah, it could be caused by a lot of different things, even by the card itself.
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