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Post by xDerekRx on Oct 7, 2015 21:21:26 GMT
We also had the UK official Sega Saturn mag filling in the gaps of stuff you wanted to know about the guys and games so Duke Nukem was a no brainer for the shopping bag even if secretly we would of rather of had Doom at the time! You can read all this in the Uk saturn mag any way and get a scene of what was going on, cast your minds back to what it might of been like, but then the news broke that Lobo was also doing Quake!!! Lobotomy surely had a big appreciation in the Europe as noted by the boys themselves, but in the US Gamefan ran huge cover stories on Quake/Duke as well as a couple inside Lobotomy articles. It was quite awesome and their coverage sold me on both releases as must haves that fall. You also have to remember Gamefan was a multiplatform magazine. We didnt have the Saturn specific mag in the US like you guys did (wish we had). So for them to feature Lobotomy's work for the fading Saturn over other consoles was pretty cool. Ive been meaning to start buying SSM off ebay for the collection.
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martiniii
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Post by martiniii on Oct 7, 2015 23:32:34 GMT
Progress has basically stopped for now. I made it through "The Crypt of Decay" alright. The end passage with the nail traps was a royal pain since if you slip up even slightly you have no choice but to kill yourself off and start the level all over again. It doesn't help that the gap is short enough that it looks like you're supposed to jump it. Loading the receiving room up with death knights on top of that is a bit cheap. The first time I got over there, I spotted the exit and pushed and shoved my way to it, since there was clearly no chance of my beating all those enemies. Cleared the level with 15 health, but it didn't matter since you start each level with at least 50 health and "The Ebon Fortress" gives you another 40 health right off the bat. Anyway, I've died something like 40 times on "The Ebon Fortress" and have barely made it more than halfway through. What's killing me is how many parts are left up to pure luck. For instance, fighting the fiends with the rocket launcher. If the fiends start by running in your direction, you're dead and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. After two play sessions of being stuck on this level, I finally looked up a video walkthrough (no one's done a written walkthrough for Saturn Quake), and surprise surprise, the guy doing the walkthrough was doing pretty much exactly what I was already doing. It really is just a matter of being consistently lucky. Can't blame Id for this setup since, as usual, they designed the game to let you save at any point, but on the Saturn it makes for quite poor level design. The frame rate is now down to the point where it's interfering with the gameplay. It took me a couple of deaths before I could even figure out what the heck was going on in the level! As is always the case with poor frame rate, with repeated plays you get a sense of where everything is and what it's doing, but it still doesn't make the hard parts of this level any easier. Though I've encountered a certain rarity: a glitch that actually helps the player. Every now and then, being hit with an enemy grenade restores my character's health by 15 points. Bizarre. There are plenty of games with "Id's creative imprint all over" that ID had nothing whatsoever to do with at all, that's the legacy of being innovative within a genre. Just because you can't recognize Id's creative imprint doesn't mean that they don't have one. To me, the difference between a game made by Id and a game made by Lobotomy (or any other developer) is as plain as night and day. Nothing of what you said deals with your original comment claiming that "Fandom of Lobotomy doesn't come into the picture, as Quake was actually developed by Id save for the Saturn version's secret levels" which is inaccurate. Saturn Quake: Original Design = ID, Development = Lobotomy. Only if you equate game development with programming, which is a lot like equating filmmaking with post-production. Or to continue with my original analogy, what you're saying is, "Look, the anonymous translator wrote every single word of The Count of Monte Cristo. He didn't retain a single line from Alexandre Dumas. So The Count of Monte Cristo: Original Idea = Alexandre Dumas, Authorship = Anonymous Translator" Which ignores the fact that the anonymous translator was simply reformatting the concept, themes, characters, subplots, allusions, plotline, and dialogue authored by Dumas into language accessible to English speakers. As with Quake, I come at the game from a player's perspective, not a programmer's perspective. (I do this with every medium, in fact. Heck, I'm a writer, and I still come at stories from a reader's perspective!) So the programming doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is you've got dozens of cool level designs, nifty enemies, incredibly moody music and lighting, a handy password feature, tons of secrets, and a well-balanced challenge that keeps you on your toes but rarely frustrates you. My point was that Saturn Doom is unplayable. Its broken, it runs terribly. The frame rate in unbearable. Doom as a game has it all, but this version is broken. Damn you Rage Soft. Saturn Doom is perfectly playable; you may want to check that your copy isn't scratched. Saying Saturn Doom's frame rate is unbearable on a thread about Saturn Quake is throwing stones from a glass house. I've been playing "The Ebon Fortress", and the frame rate is as bad as all but the worst levels of Saturn Doom. And I'm still on Episode 2! I'm almost scared to see how bad the frame rate gets in Episode 4.
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jpk72
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Post by jpk72 on Oct 8, 2015 2:38:37 GMT
Only if you equate game development with programming, which is a lot like equating filmmaking with post-production. Or to continue with my original analogy, what you're saying is, "Look, the anonymous translator wrote every single word of The Count of Monte Cristo. He didn't retain a single line from Alexandre Dumas. So The Count of Monte Cristo: Original Idea = Alexandre Dumas, Authorship = Anonymous Translator" Which ignores the fact that the anonymous translator was simply reformatting the concept, themes, characters, subplots, allusions, plotline, and dialogue authored by Dumas into language accessible to English speakers. I think what is trying to be said is that most ports are not like translations, because there's a difference between just porting a game from source code vs rebuilding from scratch. So, calling it a port is not quite right. I can see your point in that it's not just Lobotomy's game. But Lobotomy get themselves all mixed up in it as well, just like a translator inevitably leaves an imprint on his work.
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martiniii
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Post by martiniii on Oct 8, 2015 14:50:47 GMT
Only if you equate game development with programming, which is a lot like equating filmmaking with post-production. Or to continue with my original analogy, what you're saying is, "Look, the anonymous translator wrote every single word of The Count of Monte Cristo. He didn't retain a single line from Alexandre Dumas. So The Count of Monte Cristo: Original Idea = Alexandre Dumas, Authorship = Anonymous Translator" Which ignores the fact that the anonymous translator was simply reformatting the concept, themes, characters, subplots, allusions, plotline, and dialogue authored by Dumas into language accessible to English speakers. I think what is trying to be said is that most ports are not like translations, because there's a difference between just porting a game from source code vs rebuilding from scratch. So, calling it a port is not quite right. I can see your point in that it's not just Lobotomy's game. But Lobotomy get themselves all mixed up in it as well, just like a translator inevitably leaves an imprint on his work. The difference between porting a game from source code and rebuilding it from scratch is just a matter of how much work is involved; it doesn't really impact the creative end. For any game on the Saturn which was a straight port, the developers could have rebuilt the game from scratch and got the exact same results if they wanted. They simply saved time by not redoing what had already been done. But in some cases, such as Quake, you can't get a good approximation of the original game from a straight port. That's why Lobotomy rebuilt the code from scratch; it wasn't like they said "We're supposed to be working on Quake for the Saturn, but screw that, let's just make our own game and call it Quake." On the contrary, by rebuilding the game from scratch, they were actually making it a more accurate duplicate of the PC game.
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Post by xDerekRx on Oct 9, 2015 3:19:43 GMT
My point was that Saturn Doom is unplayable. Its broken, it runs terribly. The frame rate in unbearable. Doom as a game has it all, but this version is broken. Damn you Rage Soft. Saturn Doom is perfectly playable; you may want to check that your copy isn't scratched. Saying Saturn Doom's frame rate is unbearable on a thread about Saturn Quake is throwing stones from a glass house. I've been playing "The Ebon Fortress", and the frame rate is as bad as all but the worst levels of Saturn Doom. And I'm still on Episode 2! I'm almost scared to see how bad the frame rate gets in Episode 4. I need one other person on this board to chime in on Saturn Doom please I don't see how you can't notice Saturn Doom. The frame rate is disgustingly bad. They even had to speed up the gun shot which was really awkward. It was a bad port from the PSX version. I wish it were playable as Id love to play Doom on Saturn. Even the JPN version which was slightly more polished is nearly unplayable. This must be the twilight zone where Doom Saturn could even be compared to a herculean effort like Quake Saturn. Again just my opinion but Im pretty adamant about it!
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Post by MIK on Oct 9, 2015 11:52:41 GMT
DerekR, as much as I would love to help ya and normally I would, it's just I know Martinii better... I'm sure you have already said to your self, "I am wasting my time". While it was nice talking about Quake for a while and I did support ya a bit with that, the truth is it's time to let go and move on. Only Martinii can say more or less that Saturn Quake is nothing to write home about yet Saturn Doom is good. He's been here long enough to know 99% of people will say Saturn Doom is shite. The only plausible explanation he could ever hope to come out with is that he has never ever played Doom on anything else... He's also been known to play games with people and just carry on for the sake of doing so. Some folk might even think he's messing with ya but as you would, you like to give people the benefit of the doubt. He's had enough benefit and now your having doubts... Time to move on Derek and let him enjoy one of the worst Saturn games ever released.
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Post by xDerekRx on Oct 10, 2015 1:01:10 GMT
Ok ok, we are all on the same team here as I like to say lets all get back to enjoying the Saturn
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martiniii
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Post by martiniii on Oct 10, 2015 19:31:56 GMT
Two more play sessions and I finally made it through "The Ebon Fortress". Can't entirely credit my persistence for this; I looked up a walkthrough and found where the first hidden area is. Again I'm struck by how often the game treats finding secret areas as a requirement rather than a bonus. Getting past the three ogres at the beginning is almost impossible without that quad damage, and the extra box of nails is a veritable godsend at that point in the game as well. This level got me to constantly checking the status bar for updates on how many monsters are left. "The Wizard's Manse" was a lot easier, startlingly enough. 37 monsters? I'd rather 20, but I'll certainly take it over the 50 that the Ebon Fortress had! They're almost all placed such that you at least have a chance of not getting killed by them on your first attempt, too. The trick of spawning a monster right next to where your character is standing has gotten pretty old. Overall a lot more fun, and good scenery to boot. "The Dismal Oubliette" doesn't seem too bad, but I'd really been hoping for a nice relaxing boss level. Oh well. I ultimately didn't feel up to pressing through this one today, but maybe tomorrow. I'm eager to get to episode 3 as I'm still hoping to find at least one of the Lobotomy-designed levels... No luck so far, and a quick glance online shows that there doesn't seem to be any sort of info on how to get to the secret levels in Saturn Quake. Heck, the Quake wiki doesn't even recognize that those levels exist! This must be the twilight zone where Doom Saturn could even be compared to a herculean effort like Quake Saturn. Again just my opinion but Im pretty adamant about it! Saturn Quake is great and Saturn Doom is poor is the conventional wisdom, but it's clearly based on the publicity the games earned for the Saturn rather than the games themselves. For most people, Saturn Quake seems to be not so much a game to be played as a tech demo to prove the Saturn's capabilities to PlayStation and N64 owners. Likewise, people rant about Saturn Doom not as a reflection of the game itself, but as a sort of moral obligation to defend the Saturn against claims that it can't perform any better. Cyber Speedway runs poorly, but it's Saturn exclusive so Saturn fans don't make much fuss about it. Space Hulk: Vengeance of the Blood Angels is a terrible port on the Saturn, but it's not a high profile game, so again, no big deal as far as Saturn fans are concerned. So the issue is not the game itself, or even its technical performance; it's the publicity. In general, Id's games were uniquely treated as tests for how powerful a console was. Look at SNES Doom, which actually is unplayable, yet there are plenty of people who rave about how great it is. That's because they were never interested in playing the game, just in bragging to people that something like that is running (in the loosest sense of the word) on the SNES. You've already said much the same thing about Saturn Quake ("It had no business being on the system to begin with let alone a nice functioning version."). I understand the motive behind this, but to me it all seems a bit silly. The war between Saturn and PlayStation is deader than disco; apart from Saturn fans themselves, nobody cares anymore how well Doom and Quake run on the Saturn. Even back in 1997-98, I defended the Saturn with the quality of its games, not with its theoretical technical capabilities. And really, to say that Game A has a great frame rate and Game B has a poor frame rate when both games essentially have the same frame rates (which vary from level to level in both games) is contradictory from any perspective. Try asking yourself three questions: (1)What would your opinion of Doom be if it were Saturn exclusive? (2)What would your opinion of Saturn Doom be if it were running on the Sega CD instead of the Saturn? (3)What would your opinion of Saturn Quake be if someone had released the PlayStation version, which Lobotomy has said ran much better? Only Martinii can say more or less that Saturn Quake is nothing to write home about yet Saturn Doom is good. I haven't given any summary judgment on Quake. Like I said, I haven't even played it yet. He's also been known to play games with people and just carry on for the sake of doing so. Couldn't be more wrong. There was a time when I enjoyed a good online debate, but I've since been turned off it by the vast number of people who can't debate rationally or who take it as a personal offense when you voice an opinion about a video game that differs from their own. The only reason I still post messages like the above are because I don't believe in kowtowing to popular opinion. I actually procrastinate about revisiting threads like this one. Just to enlighten newcomers to this board, Mik and I had a fiery dispute many months ago. I've since left it behind (I can't even for the life of me remember what the dispute was about), but apparently he has not. So that this won't be a distraction to the board, I'll be leaving any further posts from him on this thread unread. EDIT: Was driving home last night when I realized a statement I'd made in this post was pretty much completely wrong. Removed it.
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martiniii
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Post by martiniii on Oct 14, 2015 21:05:04 GMT
I finished "The Dismal Oubliette" yesterday. Very good stuff; a classic example of Id's creative level design. The boss fight was surprisingly simplistic, but I wouldn't really have wanted a complicated boss fight at the end of such a long level anyway. And I'm appreciating the strategic element of Quake (i.e. tossing grenades to take out unseen enemies and shooting enemies from where they can't reach you) more and more. This level took a decent number of attempts, but a good percentage of the deaths were me making sometimes boneheaded mistakes. Challenging, but not unforgiving.
On a side note, it's kind of funny how Id pretty much tossed storyline out the window with Quake. The manual stops just short of saying, "Look, you're a soldier fighting monsters in a macabre medieval setting. Do you really need to know the why or how?" Obviously a game like Quake doesn't need a story, but Id's previous games gave me the impression that they get a kick out of throwing together a crude storyline.
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Post by buckoa51 on Oct 15, 2015 0:23:02 GMT
The Quake guy's name is Ranger, the story is that someone tried to create a teleport system, which the mysterious entity called "Quake" managed to hijack and used to attack humanity. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quake_%28video_game%29#Plot (it never connects to a dimension full of kittens and chocolate does it?) Is that not explained in the Saturn manual?
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martiniii
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Post by martiniii on Oct 15, 2015 19:03:24 GMT
The Quake guy's name is Ranger, the story is that someone tried to create a teleport system, which the mysterious entity called "Quake" managed to hijack and used to attack humanity. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quake_%28video_game%29#Plot (it never connects to a dimension full of kittens and chocolate does it?) Is that not explained in the Saturn manual? Yep, exactly that. I've blitzed through most of Episode 3 now. "Termination Central" continues the tradition of level 1 being frugal on health refills and loaded with enemies that shoot you from where you can't see them... but by some miracle, I managed to clear it on only my fourth try. Id's games always train you to be cautious, and it would seem my Quake training in that regard is now complete. I even anticipated some of the level's most diabolical hiding spots for enemies. Can't say I enjoyed the level, but at least I had a great deal more confidence in myself once I finished it. Naturally, "The Vaults of Zin" turned the difficulty notch way down. Not very long, and little but zombies (seemingly the only enemy in Quake that could honestly called wimpy) to deal with. The bit with the ogres dropping grenades on you from where you can't reach them was admittedly a pain in the rear, but the titular vaults made for a fun and challenging bit of hide-and-seek. Good elaborate level design. I enjoyed this one. "The Tomb of Terror" was short and sweet. Can't find much to say about it; it just had a generally nice flow, and the placement of enemies was exciting. "Satan's Dark Delight" - aaarrrgh. Tons of enemies in awkward places, too little ammunition to make it through without locating a few secret areas, slippery platforms to ride, and to top it off, frame rate nearly as bad as "The Ebon Fortess". It didn't actually take me many attempts to get through this one, but it was not a fun process by any stretch of the imagination. Ordinarily I'd have made a mad dash for the exit as soon as I saw it, but since I've been using the pause screen to confirm when there are no enemies left in the level, I saw no reason not to stay a little longer and snoop for some secrets. It took me just a few seconds to locate the exit to my first secret level, "The Coliseum". Which was pretty much a disappointment. I mean, the idea is cool, but with so little interaction involved it feels hollow. Also, I don't like that there isn't so much as a single health or ammo pickup; you're effectively punished for finding the secret entrance to the level. All in all, this would have worked better as an unlockable menu option than as a level. At least it's short. I gave "The Wind Tunnels" a go, and for a while it seemed like this was a good fun level, a nice way to fly all around the level and blast lots of enemies without the usual nerve-wracking challenge. Then I got to the part where they dump you right in the middle of 11 nail traps and a brace of death knights. Sigh. This episode has generally been a lot easier than episode 2, so I guess an ugly twist was due at some point.
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martiniii
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Post by martiniii on Oct 19, 2015 21:08:28 GMT
I finished up Episode 3. Finishing "The Wind Tunnels" was a real pain in the neck, and I'm glad to be through with it, but at the same time, I look back on it fondly. It certainly has a strong "personality", such that it feels different from any other level.
As for "Chambers of Torment"... Good grief, how many vores do they need to stick in one level?
...Actually, I quite enjoyed this level. The 56 enemies had me worried, enough not to tackle this level in the same session as I finished "The Wind Tunnels", but once I got going it amazing me that despite the unsettling layout, there are very few rude surprises in "Chambers of Torment". The vores are all placed such that you can wax them with minimal risk to yourself, and in the rare cases where enemies aren't just out there in the open, they pop up in places where you have at least a second or two to react. Not to say that it isn't exciting to use hindsight to vanquish enemies when the circumstances are stacked unfairly against your character, but I enjoy it more when you have a shot at beating them the first time around, especially when the levels are over 10 minutes long and you can't save during them. Blasting through hordes of heavyweight enemies with ease made a nice change.
The final sequence with the two vores on the bridge and the two fiends materializing around you is pretty cool, too. I did the natural thing and just made a mad run for it without firing a shot. Very satisfying.
On to the final ep...
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martiniii
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Post by martiniii on Oct 23, 2015 15:21:42 GMT
I've been cranking through the final episode. "The Sewage System" was the usual first level pain-in-the-butt of having to deal with an abundance of powerful enemies using underpowered weapons, except that this time there was plenty of health refills. I suppose it's to make up for their dumping you in the middle of a half dozen enemies at the beginning, and forcing you to swim through long underwater passages. "The Tower of Despair" was mostly fun and interesting, but once again finding secrets in the level is more of a requisite than a fun extra. The last one, especially; I tried everything but can't find a way to get past the spike door and two ogres without that secret. Certainly you could get lucky and nail both ogres while they're not paying attention, but with no ability to save mid-level, it would take much too long to get that lucky. ...Anyway, I did love the strategic use of the pentagram of protection, ring of shadows, and quad damage. "The Elder God Shrine" was comparatively a breeze: lots of easy enemies, a wild overlapping castle layout, plenty of fun powerups, and secrets that I was able to find with no trouble. I actually walked into the "Dank and Scuzz" area backwards! Dumping you into the middle of a patch of zombies without a grenade or rocket launcher was a dirty trick, but I enjoyed it. Did so well on this level in fact, that I finished it with 200 armor and about 143 health. Oh, and contrary to what the manual says, I started the next level with 200 health, not 100 health. I dig those stained-glass windows and leopard-skin ceilings, too. Cool visuals all around (except the enemies, of course). "The Palace of Hate" was long but oddly unchallenging. The theme seems to be lots of weak enemies in easy-to-reach spaces rather than a handful of tough enemies. I again finished with 200 armor and full health. The Quake guy's name is Ranger, the story is that someone tried to create a teleport system, which the mysterious entity called "Quake" managed to hijack and used to attack humanity. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quake_%28video_game%29#Plot (it never connects to a dimension full of kittens and chocolate does it?) Is that not explained in the Saturn manual? Yep, exactly that. Scratch that; I checked again and the Saturn manual says nothing about what the Slipgate device is.
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martiniii
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Post by martiniii on Oct 31, 2015 17:58:26 GMT
Finished it yesterday. The frame rate in "Hell's Atrium" was horrifying. It gave me flashbacks to "Perfect Hatred" from Saturn Doom. Only difference is, "Perfect Hatred" didn't compound its problems by having the game speed go completely chaotic.
Example: At one point I spotted a Fiend at the end of a very long corridor, so far away I could barely make it out. The fiend then seemed to disappear and instantly reappear right in front of me! I aimed my super nailgun - and it disappeared again, reappearing in the 9:00 position, and pulled off two attacks in under a second. I turned toward it, only to have it teleport again, to the 3:00 position. I lost all 100 points of health on this one encounter. Hilarious in retrospect, but utterly painful at the time.
On the plus side, having confirmed in advance that the exit to the secret level is in this level, I had a fun time roaming all over "Hell's Atrium" in search of secrets. Just a fun layout to search around, and I managed to find every single secret in the level unaided... with the sole exception of the exit to the secret level. Once I realized what you have to do to get to it, I said "Screw it" and moved on. "Hell's Atrium" is way too long to have to play the whole thing over every time you miss a jump on those bridge posts.
"The Pain Maze" is certainly appropriately named. After I had beaten most of the areas in this level without a scratch two or more times, I finally felt thoroughly fed up with the luck-based challenge on this one. It did occur to me that I might be overlooking some useful strategy, so I consulted a video walkthrough, only to see that the video maker wasn't doing anything that I wasn't already doing. This level was simply not meant to be played without the ability to save mid-level. So, for the first (and only) time, I used a cheat code. Besides the pointless frustration of playing through it normally, I've been feeling ready to finish up Quake and move on to a new game.
For that same reason, I heavily referenced a walkthrough while playing "Azure Agony". Which is a shame, because I think on the whole the difficulty in this level is extremely reasonable. There are lots of vores and zombies in awkward places, but there are sneaky ways to handle them, and the powerups are in all the right places. It doesn't rely on you finding secret areas, either, since the secrets in this level contain only ammunition and powerups, nothing that would make it easier to get through the level, especially since they have extra enemies in them, too. The finale, where you get to go gung ho on a bunch of rotfish, underwater zombies, and a vore lurking overhead with a pentagram of protection and quad damage, makes delightful carnage. But I just didn't want to go through a dozen deaths to get through this stage.
And "Shub-Niggurath's Pit"... I like the surprisingly basic opening with the rotfish and the scrag. The spiral ascent with lots of vores and shamblers is a rather predictable idea, but still fun and strategy-filled. But oy, the boss... I wasn't expecting too much, but I was certainly expecting more than a final boss which doesn't attack or even move. The method of beating her is hopelessly abstruse; as others have pointed out, you're more likely to kill Shub-Niggurath by random chance than to figure out what the trick is. If it weren't for online guides, I'd have thought her destruction was due to a glitch.
Quake has been overall disappointing on the boss front. I found an interview with John Romero where the interviewer actually asks him about how the bosses in Quake are so unthreatening and few in number compared to the ones in Doom, and Romero replies that that was due to time constraints. Not surprising.
What does everyone else think of Dank & Scuzz? I found it mildly amusing at points, but it seems weird that Sega of America decided to add in something that looks like a 14-year-old was fooling around with some graphic assets and Microsoft Paint.
I guess before I put the game away for the time being, I should see if I can find the secret levels on episodes 1 and 2. I'm a bit disappointed that the only Lobotomy-designed level I've been able to find so far is a monster vs. monster deal, not a true level at all.
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Post by Anthaemia. on Oct 31, 2015 21:03:09 GMT
I've read about Dank & "Scuz" (the latter renamed from Scud because of legal issues concerning another Saturn game released only in the US, for a clue as to its identity...) before and even seen videos on YouTube of how to unlock this particular secret, but I don't ever recall finding it in the PAL version. Saying that, I've also just had a look at a site loaded with further cheats and easter eggs that are new to me, so either these were exclusive to the American edition or were simply not well documented. Here's the link you'll need: ledmeister.com/quakecht.htm#4
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