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Post by mancity on Feb 12, 2013 16:26:46 GMT
This thread soon went sour.
Are the manuals omp has no good then?
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saskatoon
Saturn Player
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Post by saskatoon on Feb 12, 2013 16:34:59 GMT
Found the thread, linked below if you want. Some extremely nice and polite fellow came to my defense and perceived the incident exactly like I did. Thank you DruidII for not being a nutbar. Also, how does a person be a member of this assemblergames and not share the manuals, then go on to encourage somebody else to share their scanned copies of the manuals like their a god send. I spent 10 minutes on that site and I am quite impressed by how much they seem to be about archiving and preserving video game history. Very cool site indeed, I am going to force myself not to go there otherwise my whole day is going to get wasted browing cool video game stuff. www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?43652-Sega-Service-manuals-on-ebay&p=649413&viewfull=1#post649413
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Post by bradcap1 on Feb 12, 2013 16:45:41 GMT
@ retro: You claim to be appalled at the behavior here then proceed to act like an arrogant ass. You then confirm zyrob's description of you. Well played.
If zyrobs is Druid II, it looks like he apologized for his behavior 5 days ago. Why come here and beat your chest about it now? Maybe it's because you just wanted to point out that you had the originals and were unwilling to share?
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Post by zyrobs on Feb 12, 2013 16:56:57 GMT
Jesus. Stop jumping on the bandwagon guys. I just hope I can write my proper reply before this thread gets closed now.
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Post by infernalcombustion on Feb 12, 2013 18:10:09 GMT
This thread soon went sour. Agreed. Personally I'm not going to get involved in such puerile arguments and start banding words like 'prick' around. However, posting negative comments and resorting to such verbal abuse isn't serving any real purpose here. There's no reason in badgering retro with regards to sharing if he doesn't want to. Whether you like it or not, the manual is his property and he is free to do whatever he wants with it, regardless of its original source etc. Get over it. Are the manuals omp has no good then? The manuals omp/Pete has scanned are fine, I have no problems regarding format or quality. These are taken from a photocopied source, so anyone who is expecting perfection is just deluding themselves I'm afraid - get with the program people. Omp has done a great job in obtaining all of these manuals and has no doubt spent considerable time in scanning them for our benefit. As I stated earlier, I happily threw up half of the funds immediately and have been rewarded with a job well done as far as I'm concerned. I haven't visited this thread recently - not until today - and quite frankly I've been shocked and embarrassed by all of the whining over quality and file types etc. What happened to simple appreciation? --- So, I guess on behalf of the members here who appreciate your efforts and admire you for contacting us and setting up the fund in the first place Pete - I'd like to offer up a big, BIG thank you for all your time and efforts - you are a star - If there was some sort of medal for this type of thing, then I'd do my darnest to make sure that you received it.
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retro
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Post by retro on Feb 12, 2013 18:12:41 GMT
Right..
This will be a blanket post, so sorry if I don't directly quote anyone - hope it doesn't get too confusing.
Firstly, Intellectual Property - a good point raised.
Service manuals are intended to be distributed to authorized repair centres only. They aren't supposed to get released to the public. Yes, there is still copyright on the material within.
If you hang around ASSEMbler, you will notice that most people are actually there because they have development hardware - something else we shouldn't have. People are, naturally, quite cagey about revealing too much about what they have and where. Whilst we're talking about old stuff now and in all honesty, Sega probably don't care about a couple of Sophia units and a few service manuals, it is quite within their right for them to get arsey with us - maybe even demand the stuff back. Like I say, with the Saturn, we're most likely safe - but people have PS3 dev kits and what have you, so laying low is understandable.
In short, the information is still the copyright of Sega. It would technically be illegal to scan and share them. In practice, they probably wouldn't care.
As people seem to want to take me for granted, you should know that I have worked for companies repairing game consoles. So, perhaps revealing too much about what I have, or indeed releasing it, might jeopardize my relationship, and the business relationship, with some manufacturers. Like I said, you do NOT have the right to see the information in these manuals, nor do you have the right to ask me to put my career on the line. In such a situation, I am not the one being selfish - it is any and all of you who would ask me to risk my position "for the good of the community". And yeah, there is a slightly selfish stance to it, too - if it is my bread and butter, why would I give away the information for free? That would be like going into a computer repair shop and asking them to tell you, for free (or indeed for money), how to service your computer. Why would they tell you for free? You won't give them the business. Why would they tell you for a small charge, when there's a risk that you'll just take business from them now you have the knowledge? Sorry if that's selfish but hey, we all need to earn a living.
Those who know me will know that I have indeed shared information and released all sorts to various communities. You'll also know that I am primarily a collector, and as such, I am proud of my collection. How would you guys feel if I said, "Hey, I don't have Radiant Silvergun but you do - do me a copy so I can play it!" How is that any different?
There is a reason why I don't talk about owning these manuals very much, why I don't wave them around shouting out, "Hey! Look what I've got!" It's because it causes all this crap. People think that, just because they don't have this item and it is of interest to them, they have a right to have it released "for the good of the community". Newsflash - YOU DON'T. What next? Break into Sega HQ and steal their filing cabinets "for the good of the community"?!? You know Sega probably has some good stuff in their walls, but you don't hound them for it. Why hound me? I've said I'm not releasing it, so deal with it. The more you go on about it, the less inclined I am to ever show you anything.
Zyrobs actually continually said that nobody was rude to omp, which is not the case. There was someone else here (the retail manual scanner) who got some rude replies about his efforts, too. The reason I posted here was to say I'm amazed that people show their generosity and rather than thanks, they get bitched at.
Incidentally, ASSEMbler is not a place that's all about sharing. There are many collectors there who have no intention of sharing, and we respect that. They post pictures of their vast collections, perhaps with some "my dick is bigger than your dick" undertones, and we all gawp in admiration and ask questions. Those questions very rarely include "are you selling that item?" - because we know the person is a collector, and the answer is no.
Saskatoon, I will address you directly. I replied to your post, trying to keep it polite, and I hope my reply managed that. However, I was somewhat annoyed, and to be fair, it's not really your fault. Let me explain that a bit:
Zyrobs obviously knows I have these manuals from ASSEMbler. He will know full well, therefore, that I have no intention of selling. On every occasion they've been mentioned, I've made it clear that I am not selling. Therefore, I wasn't too impressed when he came over here calling me a hoarder who won't share, and continued belittling someone who WOULD share but apparently not in the precise manner in which Zyrobs was hoping.
I make no excuses for what I said on ASSEMbler - I was rash and (like I said, no excuse) it was late and I was tired. I know better than to post in haste when tired, so I should have again bitten my tongue. I do apologize wholeheartedly for what I said when you were only trying to make me an offer.
That said, I did feel your offer was rather an insult. I believe it was mentioned that $300 was paid for one photocopied manual? In which case, $100 Canadian was a low offer for several original manuals. I was a bit annoyed that you'd made me an offer when I've always stated they're not for sale, but I realize that you're not to blame for that, as my post here was the only time I haven't categorically stated they aren't for sale at any price. I did state, though, that nobody has approached me with an offer for me to SCAN them.
Whilst I am sure you meant no malice by it, I was a little upset that you mentioned that the manuals should be spread amongst those who can use them. With respect, I'm more qualified than many to make use of the manuals and I have done so for years now. And your opinion that they aren't my property really riled me up. I paid for them, they are my property. They may contain information that a whole community would like to see, but that does not mean they have the right to see it.
The sad thing is that, as those who know me will know, I've been writing a book on the Sega Saturn, when health has allowed, for several years now. As part of my research (as well, of course, to go in my collection) I purchased these manuals at great expense. I was actually negotiating the publication of some of this material within the book - again, at my cost. You guys would have had the choice to buy the book AND have the information you wanted, professionally printed, for a great price. And a lot of other information, besides.
omp's scans, for those asking, look great for what they are! He's done a great job, especially considering what he had to work with. Photocopies of service manuals are never great. Most of the text is perfectly legible, certainly.
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segata
Saturn Player
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Post by segata on Feb 12, 2013 18:43:38 GMT
Well ,
the internet ,
serious business !
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saskatoon
Saturn Player
Joined: January 2013
Posts: 111
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Post by saskatoon on Feb 12, 2013 18:46:00 GMT
First and foremost, we are grateful to OMP, you will note you are not the first to thank him (and neither am I).
The scans sold for $80 AUD, I offered you $100 CDN, which was %25 higher than what the scans sold for. The $300 figure is what was raised for the manuals, I am sure we could raise that in a heartbeat. Why don't you name a figure for it? What did you pay for them? (Please spare us the tirade about how your business dealings are of no business of ours). You also never stated you had multiple, how was I possibly supposed to know you had more than the one is question?
If you paid for the manuals, you do not work for Sega nor would you jeopardize any kind of working relationship with them. Especially since they are no longer in the business of making (or repairing as of 2007) Sega consoles, of any kind in any region. I understand you might be in the business of repairing, but I ran an electronics warehouse for years, I spent MANY hour conversing with the repair depots around town. They were are more than willing to provide me information of out of date repair manuals from major companies they still work for. Now if I were to ask for current manuals or even products that are not manufactured but still service that would be a completely different story.
You saying how you are more qualified than most people that will be using it is a statement of blatant arrogance quite frankly.
People have a right to information. This information wouldn't cause harm if spread, nobody would be out of work. The guys who would have benefited from it went out of work years ago.
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Post by zyrobs on Feb 12, 2013 19:22:32 GMT
OK, here we go. 1# regarding the argument about how to scan these: I had my stance on this answered here already, retro conveniently skipped this: www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?43652-Sega-Service-manuals-on-ebay&p=647745&viewfull=1#post647745The gist of it is that I didn't knew what equipment or experience omp had for scanning, so I was aggressively supporting making the highest possible quality copies. It is possible to downsample those without perceivable quality loss; but you can't upsample lower quality scans to look as good as high quality ones. But in the end Omps scans turned out better than I could dream of, so this argument is moot point by now: as omp said, directly replying to my explanation on this, all is well that ends well. (and yes, I'm Druid II at assemblers, and no, I don't use different names to back myself up in arguments, I use it to protect my identity from morons. It's a long story. However I've traded items both there and here, so plenty of people should have my personal details on both sites) 2# regarding the effort it takes to scan these: I've scanned in hundreds of pages, both on crappy A4 flatbed scanners, as well as office A3 deluxe photocopiers. With proper equipment, all you need is to feed the machine the pages, and upload the results, as some scanners have support for networking and can save scanned images directly to your HD. Again, I had no idea what equipment omp has access to, good or bad, so see #1. 3# regarding PDF: Industry standard or not, PDF is a gigantic pain in the ass. It requires 1000+$ Adobe apps to edit/extract properly (since you mentioned Photoshop). There may be free alternatives, but all the ones I tried so far were sub par quality wise. A simple TIFF or PNG or JPG is ultimately much easier to edit, and can be later on stitched together into a PDF once we know the quality that is best suited (as I recall the free Acrobat can save things in PDF?). Again, see #1 on this; it is now a moot point because omps scans are way better than I expected, and I've already reconciled with him; bringing up these is essentially beating a dead horse. 4# regarding Trekkies bad scans: If his scans look god awful, I'll call them god awful. Because it's the honest to god truth. I appreciate his effort to scan and share something, but that appreciation won't make his scans look better. And yes, I am entitled to saying that I could do better scans, because I HAVE done better scans before (in an entirely different community mind you, and mostly stuff I've yet to release due to requiring some further edits). And yes, I realize this is arrogant from me, but it is the truth, and the truth bites sometimes. And I'd rather be bitten a thousand times than to lie to others, because of courtesy or otherwise. This is just the way I lead my life. 5# regarding the manuals you own: Please understand that we are talking about information that can potentially be used to repair a 18+ year old game console. I, and many other members here, have several family members who didn't yet exist when we first got a Saturn. Please understand that most of the regulars here have a passion for this console, and would like to see it last as long as possible - and/or have many broken units in need of repairs. In the past, you've made posted tidbits of the info you knew presumably from these documents (some which were public knowledge or just plain common sense), and criticized us for not using the proper procedure for repairs. But I've yet to see you actually sharing any USEFUL, SPECIFIC information on how to fix these machines, in even threads dedicated to fixing these machines. Now, Internet forums, being a textual format, do not convey tone well, so you should be aware that the way you talk here comes off as a rather holier-than-thou attitude. Especially when you then laugh at us on other forums: so we are moochers because we want your documents shared, and then tightwads because we didn't offer enough moolah for them? Here, in a thread about multiple communities successfully working together to raise money for the documents in question? Are you honestly not seeing a problem about that? With all that said, I'm still game if you want to make some cash with those manuals. Saskatoon offered $100 CDN, I still have some $150 USD I could dig up. Maybe others could chip in. And since we ultimately want proper scans of these, you can still keep your originals, or one of us could buy it, scan it, and send it back to you, whichever. Win-win situation for everyone involved. 6# Regarding the post you made while I was writing this: - intellectual property is a difficult argument, because what is right has no relation to what is legal. As far as I'm concerned, Sega is completely oblivious to most of the IP they own, and the rest of it they treat awful. So with that sad state of events, I'm forced to say: fuck Sega. Once they start consistently making stuff worth respecting, I'll start respecting them. And like you said, there is a huge chance that they wouldn't care if these docs came out anyway, and they went bankrupt how many times since then - it's a completely different company now. - there are many ways to get around the identity problem, that would ruin your goodwill at work. I am well aware of what this means, and I fully respect and support those who still get around it in order to help the community. This is not a problem as long as you know what you are doing. Of course, I've seen some internal docs which were watermarked by default, which could be a hurdle, but not a big one. And again, we are talking about 18+ year old documents that only few care about, so it is likely that they wouldn't jeopardize your position much if at all. Where there is will, there is a way. - "Hey, I don't have Radiant Silvergun but you do - do me a copy so I can play it!" - that's a commercially released game that anyone can buy, and anyone can copy. Plenty of copies were already made, and plenty can be made more. A service manual is only accessible to select few however, and made available in smaller numbers. Therefore it is much more susceptible of getting lost forever. There is a whole preservation / cultural value thing going on here. I've lost some things before that I did not release, and it was a bitch to get them back, and it could have been prevented if I hadn't hoarded my stuff. - about insulting others: see the rest of my post, AND your own response to saskatoon: same applied to me back there, I was a little mad. And I'm pretty sure I never insulted omp, and if I did, it was never intended and I already apologized to him about it (truth to be told I've yet to see someone who wrote english with such an accent, I freely admit that I can't fully understand a few things he says). - yes, you made it a point that you are not selling your manuals in any form, which is part of the reason why I never offered to buy them, the other part being that couldn't make an offer that wasn't laughable before, being jobless for a few years. So it would've been a waste of both of our time if I kept bugging you about it, not until I could make an offer you couldn't possibly refuse. And since scanning would ruin the value, that would be almost the same as if you sold it (as you could still keep a scan for yourself in that case!), so, no reason to bug you about something that would go nowhere. ~$300 was raised for this one Saturn manual by the way, of which I sent about half, but I told omp that he could use my money to spend it on the 16-bit manuals. So the $300 figure is misleading in that context. Furthermore, a lot of it was refunded, as due to the communication between respective communities, the auction prices were kept low. I think the Saturn manual went for something around 100 AUD, I'm not sure, and that was a physical copy (of a photocopy but still), not just an offer to scan them. - about your book: you are not the only one using this info for a more serious goal. You are not the only one dumping money into documenting this machine, nor the only one who has been doing it for several years. Madroms and me have been at it since almost a decade. I've bought and dumped hundreds of undumped discs no one cared about, bought 20+ machines (so far...) and learned soldering and photographing so I can work with them, document them, reverse engineer them, and generally science them up, to find the info you just bought. I'm about to commission an electrical engineer on figuring out how to fix that buzzing model 1 power supply (though I figure that it won't be possible due to no available replacement transformers, but it's worth a try). I've privately tested related tools that you'd only know to exist in rumors. I've done about all I could for which finances weren't an obstacle, and I've started moving past that the last few years because it's finally less of an obstacle than it was before. So don't get too riled up: you are not that much of a unique little snowflake. So as I said above; I'm still game if you are willing to release full scans of your manuals for a price. This entire thread was about that, anyway. (have I broken the per post character limit yet?)
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Post by TrekkiesUnite118 on Feb 12, 2013 19:56:54 GMT
Here's some friendly advice, zyrobs. Internet forums, being a textual format, do not convey tone well. If you were serious.... - Yes, I have several manuals. - Yes, I have stated that I won't distribute them. - These are my property and NOBODY has a God-given right to have a copy. - My time is worth money. - Scanning these documents would vastly affect any resale value, should I ever consider selling them. - If you really wanted me to scan them, you would have approached me in a friendly manner and made me an offer that would have been worth my while. NOBODY has done this (although I assume mostly because they respect my decision). - You do not have a right to moan because I won't share my property with you. - You do not know my reasons for not wanting to share, nor do you have any right to make derogatory assumptions. However, despite your tirade on this thread, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and take your comment in jest. In which case, I'll say - woah, have we met? You've got me there Mick - apologies for having a rant myself, but I felt rather strongly about this. If you don't mind my asking, what kind of offer would you consider worth your while? EDIT: Didn't see there was another page. I saw your explanation and I can respect that reasoning. I wouldn't want to jeopardize relationships like that either if I was in that position. Also I've sent a request to the mods to have this thread locked. We don't need a flamewar like this and all it will eventually do is give our site a bad reputation. I'm honestly appalled by how this thread spun out of control.
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Post by Syntesis on Feb 12, 2013 20:21:57 GMT
I would again be happy to chip in to a community led effort to get these released. I can put £50 on the table if these are originals, I just need to chuck some stuff up on ebay.
These things are of no real use to me, I just want to do my bit and out of thanks to zyrobs, linlhutz, madroms, mr saturn, mick and everyone else who is keeping the Saturn alive and preserving its legacy.
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Post by zyrobs on Feb 12, 2013 20:26:21 GMT
I'll wait for retros reply here before making any further "snide remarks" over how he went atomic about any possible future scans.
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Post by TrekkiesUnite118 on Feb 12, 2013 20:32:02 GMT
I'd rather you just keep your mouth shut.
This has gone on long enough and you've successfully made an ass of yourself, ruined a thread, and very likely tarnished this community's reputation with your attitude.
If you want to bitch at retro about how he wont share his toys with you take it to private messages. Stop acting like a spoiled child.
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retro
Saturn Player
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Post by retro on Feb 12, 2013 20:42:26 GMT
I'll reply to saskatoon first, then briefly zyrobs (and those who know me know that brief is difficult for me! lol) - as a mish-mash again. I appreciate that you offered 25% over the cost someone paid for a PHOTOCOPY of a document. Perhaps that might be considered a reasonable amount for an original - but I did state manualS - which means more than one. As such, even if I only had two, 25% more was a low offer for two original manuals - or indeed, two photocopies. I'm sure you can appreciate that. Your assumptions are, once again, misguided I'm afraid. Sometimes, when a company no longer requires something, they dispose of it - either as junk, or by selling. Sometimes, an employee or associate might make an offer for such an item. Such an employee may well have signed an NDA with a company such as Sega, and more besides. Let me ask you - if you had signed a non-disclosure agreement before receiving documents, would you then break that legally binding agreement and share the information? Likewise, if you were trying to publish something legitimately, would you jeopardize the relationship with the IP holder by giving that material away, either for free or selling in unlawfully? Regardless of how old the material is, or whether the IP holder cares, you can still put yourself on the line. If you manage to talk to a developer who made Saturn games and still makes games, they might well say that they can't show you anything covered by that NDA (e.g. a Saturn dev kit), as it is still in place. Covering something that both of you said - laser alignment. Any engineer worth their salt knows not to mess with the factory settings on a laser diode without the correct specifications and test disc. I have stated, on several occasions, that the hobbyists who idly tweak the potentiometers on their lasers are risking damage to their equipment. I have even given them the correct settings, although they're not much use without the test disc. And you need an oscilloscope to test them via test points - measuring the resistance of the potentiometer is a pointless exercise and meaningless. I have stated this on many occasions - not to be arrogant or for one-upmanship as you think, but as friendly advice to prevent people from doing more harm than good to their consoles! OK, not knowing what equipment someone has is fine. You know what the answer is? ASK! And, as I've said before, be polite and patient with them. Appreciate the effort they're going to for "the greater good" and give your time in a calm, professional manner. How many of your teachers would say, "Oh for God's sake, boy! That's not how you do it! Oh, get out of the way, I'd be better off doing it myself!" That sort of attitude helps noone. I'm sorry, but you are wrong about PDFs. They are very easy to deal with. For example, you can open up the PDF in the free Adobe Reader, select the picture you want to alter with the selection box, and copy image. You can then paste it in Microsoft Paint or GIMP or whatever's your poison. Easy. However, Photoshop and any other image editing programme (including the free GIMP or Inkscape) will open PDFs. Photoshop is available on a monthly fee as part of the full Creative Suite package, too. If you're serious about image editing, then you really should have Photoshop - and Illustrator if you're doing vector design. Trekkie's scans weren't THAT bad. Yes they had background noise but, as you know full well, you can edit that with a few simple adjustments. Again, there's a way to deal with it. Don't tell him his scans are god awful - tell him you appreciate his efforts but he might consider scanning them with such-and-such settings, and then using an image editing programme (even GIMP) to adjust the levels and erase any blemishes. See? Polite, and easy! Try it As for the manuals, yes they are watermarked. There were not many manuals in this country, there were very few who were authorized to do repairs. And so they are traceable. I'm not going to sell them and, at the moment, I'm not going to scan them for any price, either. Sorry if this pisses anyone off, but again I'll reiterate that it's my decision so please respect it. No, you do not have any right to see the information in these documents. There are lots of documents out there that would be a fascinating read and great to have a copy of, but it'll never happen. As for the whole being part of the community and sharing thing, I do that already. I contribute to communities I deem worthwhile, as and when I have time (a precious commodity to me!) - including this one. Yes, I have given technical advice for free. Yes, I've sent people things they've needed (like parts). And, above all, I've put countless hours into research for my book and would never even consider publishing until I am satisfied that it is a worthy enough volume for any Saturn collector. And yes, I have a lot of information that would have otherwise been lost. I hate to even mention it, really. I don't like to talk about it, I'd rather just get on and do it in my own time and turn around at the end and say, "Hey guys, guess what? I'll be releasing a book - hope you'll all buy it!". THAT is my contribution to the Saturn community. I never said that I was, nor would I ever want to be, unique. There are Saturn collectors who have things I can only dream of having. And sure, I have things others want. This happens. Don't ever be jealous of other collectors - be friends with them. Jim "Mr. Star Wars" Stevenson and Jason Joiner, two major Star Wars collectors, will tell you that one has items the other would like, and vice versa. Likewise, I applaud any and all efforts to document, learn, reverse engineer, code for (you have my sympathy on that one!!) the Saturn. Madroms site is awesome - I certainly learnt a thing or two from it! Incidentally, replacing the PSU is no problem. The problem is summing up whether it's worth it. You're talking crazy prices. And believe me, without wanting to sound arrogant, I should know - I've had parts remanufactured for machines that the manufacturers stopped caring about 20 years previously! Unfortunately, we're basically a niche market when you're not buying in the thousands, and these items are priced accordingly :\ Let's see... I think that was pretty brief for me!
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Post by TrekkiesUnite118 on Feb 12, 2013 20:54:04 GMT
Out of curiosity what exactly is the test disc that's used for the laser adjustment?
I tweaked the potentiometer on my Gamecubes laser a few years back simply because it had reached the point where it was essentially a brick, and I figured if I damaged it at that point I'd just look into either getting a whole new drive for it or just replacing it.
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